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Separation of Church and State


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#31 Vampchick21

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Posted 04 June 2004 - 04:43 PM

and this is my question. why do people have issues with wiccans like dev that are as honest about their faith as christians are with theirs in public?



Sadly, it's because of misinformation, plain and simple.  

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#32 bardo

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Posted 04 June 2004 - 05:15 PM

A moment of silence a pray to whom you wish.There should not be a seperate school board like there is in canada. If you want religion in your school people should have to pay for a private school. We have large class sizes now and the teachers are haveing a hard time teaching ciriculum .So if we closed the seperate school board and worked as one board we would have more money and we could afford more teachers.Religion should be taught at home or through the churches.
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#33 Caesar

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Posted 04 June 2004 - 05:19 PM

I  think there should be a moment af silence in public schools. I'm not Religios myself

#34 Vampchick21

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Posted 04 June 2004 - 07:55 PM

?

There's a Separate School Board in the US as well.  

I see nothing wrong with having a Catholic School Board.  I went to Catholic School.  

Besides, the large class sizes IS NOT the fault of the Catholic School Board.  It's the fault of the former Provincial Conservative Government, they made a HUGE error in their funding formula.  They figured large urban school boards could exist on the same funding smaller rural school boards could.  

The Provincial Government mainly funds the Public School board, but you say where the portion of YOUR Provincial tax money for education goes too.  Public or Separate.  The Government also funds French Emerision schools, and provides funding to other religious schools (such as Christian, Jewish and Muslim).

The funding they give the 'speciality' schools is smaller than they give to the Public Schools, simply because the majority of the funding comes from those sending their children there.  Yes, my father checked the little box on his tax form every year saying he wanted his tax dollars to go to the local Separate School board rather than the local Public School Board.  And a portion of the money that you drop in the collection plate goes to the school as well.  Same with the funds raised by other means.

And, the Government only sticks it's nose into the secular ciriculum, as in, Math, Science, etc, to ensure that all students from all schools have the same level in that regard.

While I know that I stated earlier that I would like my Government to be as secular as possible, I recognize the need for various religious insititions for federal funding.  So long as it's equally laid out.  And so long as that religious instituion doesn't try to interfere with secular Government.

If I may ask, in many of your posts Bardo, you seem down on the Catholic faith in particular.  May I ask why, if it's not going to pry into anything you wish to keep private?  

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#35 freyjasdottir

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 01:16 AM

Here at least I have to pay taxes to support the local public school but neither of my children are in it.  My daughter goes to a private school and I home school my son
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#36 Ectoplazzum

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 04:07 AM

Why do you assume I am referring to a "Christian" God?  ???



What other god besides the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham (YHVH) is recognized by all institutions in this country that could therefore be purged from those institutions?

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#37 Lamuris

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 05:47 AM

I know that I am opening a can of worms but,just a thought.If it were not Christianity we are talking about, would anyone be making a big deal about this? I am not Christian, but I can respect the traditions of our country. "most countrys have them" As long as I have the freedom to practice my own beliefs, why would I need to rain on anouthers parade?

#38 dodiebird

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 07:57 AM

Great Point Lamuris!

#39 Vampchick21

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 09:15 AM

I know that I am opening a can of worms but,just a thought.If it were not Christianity we are talking about, would anyone be making a big deal about this? I am not Christian, but I can respect the traditions of our country. "most countrys have them" As long as I have the freedom to practice my own beliefs, why would I need to rain on anouthers parade?



In a nation with a secular government and a multi-cultural, mulit-faith population?  

Yes.

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#40 MoonChild

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 09:20 AM

In a nation with a secular government and a multi-cultural, mulit-faith population?  

Yes.


but how secular? how much multi-cultured deep inside of the state?

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#41 flyingorb

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 09:29 AM

What other god besides the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham (YHVH) is recognized by all institutions in this country that could therefore be purged from those institutions?

Elle



Hi Elle,

God is one.  It doesn't matter if you are Christian, Moslem, Buddist, ect. All are man's attempt to understand, and sometimes to try and control, his Creator.  Think of the facets of a diamond.  It is indeed all one diamond, but the facets each represent another aspect of the whole.  In fact everything around us is another aspect of God.  The more you study science, the deeper the realization that there is a basic "beauty and order" in everything that surrounds us, and in us too.  That is also God.

Not all the founding fathers were Christian, but I agree that the imprint and effect of Christianity is buried in our laws.  That is why the whole idea of not promoting "one state approved" religion was so important to the creaters of the constitution.  Practice religion yes, but put all religions on an equal footing.  History does show that it has not been even-handed; However, the present legal movement seems to be focused on removing God from our society, not on allowing the fullness of all religions to be experienced and expressed on an equal footing.  I fully believe that a society that has lost its recognition of a Creator is a doomed society.

I am patient and realize that this is an imperfect world.  If Christianity is the only vehicle available to present the idea that there is a Creator, as opposed to the despair imparted by Secular Humanism, then I say well and good.  If the young first come to realise that there is a Creator, then the rest will follow and they will find their own path to him later.  ;)

So says one Christian Heretic.  :(
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#42 Gregory

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 09:50 AM

...the despair imparted by Secular Humanism...


What the hell?  If you really think secular humanism imparts despair, you obviously don't understand it.  Even though I have always thought religion in general is pretty silly, I have always attempted to be respectful of people's beliefs; all I ask in return is that you do not malign my own like this.
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#43 anasuya

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 10:10 AM

Who was it that mentioned being an atheist? Even though most of us can wrap our brains around the idea that there IS one God, although some may see this God with different faces, that belief doesn't take into consideration those who don't believe in a god at all. So, even if we COULD all agree to disagree on who or what God really is, and allow pray in schools under the assumption we will silently pray to that diety specific to our path, it doesn't do much for those who are atheist. Hence why I believe prayer has no place in an educational atmosphere, at least not a public school forum. Heck, I would even prefer replacing Bible studies classes in private or Catholic schools with something more generic, like an Ethics class, that doesn't revolve around a specific divine creator.

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#44 anasuya

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 10:20 AM

By the way, everyone. This topic is not meant to challenge anyones particular faiths. Please be sure to read carefully over your responses so as not to offend anyone. Granted, in debates like this, that can get tricky, but I only ask that you try. I was hoping to hear responses concerning this issue from more logical standpoints, while leaving the emotional to the rear of the issue, and for the most part, everyone is handling this beautifully. I've just seen boards turn to chaos with discussions like this because the emotional end of the spectrum ends up holding the winning hand. Thanks, and if you have any problems with posts, be sure to contact myself or Willow concerning the matter. (And this goes for posts in ANY thread, of course, as religion/spirituality is often a prickly subject for some)

BB, Ana
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#45 Ectoplazzum

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 10:36 AM

Hi Elle,

God is one.  It doesn't matter if you are Christian, Moslem, Buddist, ect. All are man's attempt to understand, and sometimes to try and control, his Creator.  Think of the facets of a diamond.  It is indeed all one diamond, but the facets each represent another aspect of the whole.  In fact everything around us is another aspect of God.  The more you study science, the deeper the realization that there is a basic "beauty and order" in everything that surrounds us, and in us too.  That is also God.

Not all the founding fathers were Christian, but I agree that the imprint and effect of Christianity is buried in our laws.  That is why the whole idea of not promoting "one state approved" religion was so important to the creaters of the constitution.  Practice religion yes, but put all religions on an equal footing.  History does show that it has not been even-handed; However, the present legal movement seems to be focused on removing God from our society, not on allowing the fullness of all religions to be experienced and expressed on an equal footing.  I fully believe that a society that has lost its recognition of a Creator is a doomed society.

I am patient and realize that this is an imperfect world.  If Christianity is the only vehicle available to present the idea that there is a Creator, as opposed to the despair imparted by Secular Humanism, then I say well and good.  If the young first come to realise that there is a Creator, then the rest will follow and they will find their own path to him later.  ;)

So says one Christian Heretic.  :(
Dennis



Not everyone feels that way though, Dennis.  Not everyone believes that there is one god with many faces.  YHVH himself doesn't even believe that, as is evidenced by the second commandment where he admonishes people that they shall put no other gods before him and admits that it's because he is a jealous god.

That being said, there are also agnostics and athiests aplenty in this country who should be taken into consideration as well.  

This country was not founded on Christianity, our founding fathers were not Christian.  Many were deists.  This country was founded on the basis of people being able to practice the religion of their choice, worshipping the god(s)/goddess(es) of their choice.  It just happens that the majority of people in this country and in our government do worship YHVH and therefore when "God" is referred to, it is just assumed by them that YHVH is that god.  

I have absolutely nothing against Christians.  Most of my family is Christian, however they are the type of Christian that even today's special brand of rabid Christian wouldn't recognize as such.  In any event it's not Christians or Christianity I have anything against, it is our government's insistence in presenting it as the official religion of the USA that bugs me to no end.  Even if you say that there is but one god with many facets, not everyone sees it that way so therefore it's unfair for the government to portray it that way, and IMO, they're not portraying it that way, when they say "In God We Trust" they are talking about the God of Abraham.  Unfortunately, they do not put all religions on an equal footing in this country, and this has become glaringly apparent under the Bush administration, who have, on more than one occasion, spoken out against Wicca.  This country is not going to be fair, religiously speaking, until fundamentalists are not allowed to control the government.  My 2 cents.   ;)

Elle




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