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#31 aloha_spirit

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 04:42 PM

but the founder of the Restoration Movement was never baptized in any other Church. He wasn't trying to Reform some existing denomination; instead he restored all things through heavenly visits starting in 1820.


That's if you believe in that guy, which I don't. I personally think he was a dirty old man who wanted to get laid every night by a different woman! I also think either he was doing drugs or he suffered from a severe psychosis. And I find it hystreical that he found a bunch of followers who are willing to take his word over Christ's- even with Christ warning us about false prophets.


A warning against false prophets doesn't exclude the possibility of legit prophets, does it? Did not Amos teach that the Lord GOD would do nothing with first revealing his secret to the prophets (Amos 3:7)?

Didn't Paul teach that the organization of the Church (laid on a foundation of prophets and apostles) would survive until its purpose was fulfilled - that is until all mankind comes to the unity in the faith of Christ(Eph 4:11-16)? Last I checked, Christianity itself hasn't united under a single faith AND less than half the world's population is even Christian.

All Christians churchs are the result of splintering from the Roman communion.  First it was the Eastern Orthodox who splintered because the did not believe that the Holy Trinity were one in the same.  Next came the Prostestants from which Mormonism splintered.


Again I declare that Mormonism (aka the Restoration Movement) did not splinter from the Protestants or Reformationists.

Out of all the Christian denominations and sects out there, only Catholicism and Mormonism have possible claims to the Priesthood given Peter by the Lord.

Jesus' authority is beyond reproach. He is the Son of God and the promised Messiah. Jesus laid his hands on Twelve Apostles, Peter being the chief. After Judas' death, the remaining 11 filled the vacancy. So it continued for a time. At some point, there were no more apostles, just bishops vying for positions. Eventually the bishop of Rome was declared the Pontiff and since that time the Catholic Church has been led by whoever is the bishop of Rome.

All the Protestant Churches declared that Catholicism was corrupt; that the Church of Rome lost her Priesthood Authority. They broke off, but had no claim to Peter's keys.

In 1820, Joseph Smith Jr was confused by the multitude of religionists. He knew it was important to follow the Lord, but with which sect should he unite? He retired to a grove of trees to pray about this. Joseph recorded that the Father and Son came down in a pillar of light and told him that through him (Joseph) the fulness of the gospel would be restored.

After a time, John the Baptist visited Joseph Smith Jr and Oliver Cowdry. John conferred upon them the Priesthood of Aaron which includes proper authority to baptize. At that time, Joseph and Oliver were baptized.

Peter, James, and John (the Apostles from the New Testament) conferred upon Joseph and Oliver their keys and Priesthood, which included authority to organize and lead the Lord's Church.

On 6 April 1830, Joseph founded the Church of Jesus Christ. A few years later this was changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So, Mormonism was a restoration, not a reformation. Iit did not splinter off any other existing group.

So, either Catholicismm is true or Mormonism is true or all Christianity has gone astray. No one else even has the slightest claim to the Keys of Peter.

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#32 Sammy_Da_Cat

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 04:44 PM

The problem I am having is with your mixing of Karma and other religious symbols.

But Sammy, why can't one take different philosophies from different belief systems and come up with their own. I think it's the 'ideas' behind some of these philosophies that are attractive. SHoot! Look at all the religions that have splintered off of Catholicism-for ALL Christian religions can trace their roots back to the Holy Roman Catholic Church-that have taken certain ideas but left some of the practices.

Are you not happy with the idea that Petunia refers to Karma but does not really know what it means in it's true sense? That she's taken a phrase and made into what SHE believes it means?

The problem with picking apart philosophies from different religions to create a totally new one is IT GETS TO CoNfUsInG! Not only for the people who have to hear about it but to the practitioner also. Especial when the individual themselves cannot come up with a valid reason that the two teachings are connected. If I were to claim the “Titans once ruled the world as gods and the human race was spawn from their fecal matter”, then claim “Indras Web is the same oneness we find in Jesus!” Can ya tell me what that means? What? Heck there is no way I could explain that to you! But they are “Beliefs”.

Now if you look at Moonchild’s and my opinions about Karma you can see that there are similarities and differences. We both have been taught about Karma. He says Karmic Bondage, I say Karmic Debt, He will say Karma is action, I will say Karma is not only action but intent before action, but both of us still believe in relatively the same thing at its most mundane form. I am sure if either of us had time to chat for a long period of time we would both be able to see many more similarities on the higher levels. We can connect even though we have different beliefs and religions.

When I talk to my brother about God I can connect to him. I know what he has been taught because I have been taught it too, for eight years. I’ve read the Bible more then once in my life time and I’ve learned a thing or two because of it. Even though I am not able to draw a definite connection between Buddhism and Christianity I can still connect to what he believes because I took the time learn it.

I’ve talked to agnostics and atheists who are very strong in their beliefs and have and continue to try and break my faith. I even could find a connection to them. At one time I had given up on all religion. Yup threw it out the window. I know how they felt and why they believe as they do. Because I was one of them.

And of course there is personnel connection between my life and my beliefs. These come from seeing the teaching come true in my life. This isn’t done on blind faith its done who I’ve always done it. By actively putting each belief or part to the test. If it fails the test I won’t believe. A belief is nothing if a person can not find a connection to it. How can you explain something that you just blindly believe?

Because I have a personnel stake in all this Karma biz I get a little catty, so to speak. When I see people giving it a bum rap, using it incorrectly, or confusing themselves and others of course I am going to chime in. Did any expect anything else?
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#33 hawkerdriver

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 06:32 PM

A warning against prophets doesn't exclude the possibility of legit prophets, does it?

First, prove he was legit. Second, if he was legit Christ would have mentioned him somewhere along the way, He didn't. BUT He did warn of false prophets that would come. I personally think that Smith ate too many mushrooms and had a hell of trip. Third, God sent his only Son, no mortal man could possibly follow THAT act as there was no need.

Last I checked, Christianity itself hasn't united under a single faith AND less than half the world's population is even Christian

.


And it WON'T happen with religions such as yours that take on such an elitist attitude. "We don't acknowleged the Baptism of other religions." Catholicism does. May I remind you that it wasn't until the '60's that your faith actually allowed Blacks? Yeah, that's unity for ya.

Restoration Movement

What were they restoring? The faith? Or the Politics of the Church? Mormonism DID splinter from a prostestant sect but it escapes me at the moment which one. (He was raised a certain faith in New York. ) In Ohio, I can't remember which one it was that he was thinking about joining. Why did they splinter primarily? Cuz' the men in your faith wanted to have multiple wives. The wild acid trip (or peyote) with the magical spectecles was a doozey! While we're at it, what about restoration? You've got sects in Utah who are tying to restore your church. They're living as the early Mormons did with plural wives.

Out of all the Christian denominations and sects out there, only Catholicism and Mormonism have possible claims to the Priesthood given Peter by the Lord.


Nope. Mormonism wasn't thought of for another 1,850 years.

Joseph recorded that the Father and Son came down in a pillar of light and told him that through him (Joseph) the fulness of the gospel would be restored

That's not what his diaries said. There's a great amount of conflict coming from Smith himself about this. Seems he can't get his story straight.

All the Protestant Churches declared that Catholicism was corrupt


If you're referring to Martin Luther, go read his stuff. He was interested in exposing the corruption but not dividing the church. We know the next to leave Rome was England, and Henry wanted to divorce his wife and his Archbishop thought it would be really groovy to be the Pope for the Church of England. Talk about corruption.

So, Mormonism was a restoration, not a reformation. Iit did not splinter off any other existing group


Pahlease! So, it sounds to me like the Mormons like to think of themselves as the ones who founded CHRISTIANITY. It didn't exist before you guys showed up, right? Booshiat!
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#34 hawkerdriver

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 06:55 PM

Sammy, I understand your thinking. But you really don't think there's any base line connection between the different belief systems and religions? I see a lot of the same ideas expressed differently. Virgin Mary is similar to The pagan Goddess.
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#35 aloha_spirit

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 10:10 PM

[quote=hawkerdriver]
[quote name='aloha_spirit]A warning against false prophets doesn't exclude the possibility of legit prophets' date=' does it?[/quote']

First, prove he was legit. Second, if he was legit Christ would have mentioned him somewhere along the way, He didn't. BUT He did warn of false prophets that would come. I personally think that Smith ate too many mushrooms and had a hell of trip. Third, God sent his only Son, no mortal man could possibly follow THAT act as there was no need.[/quote]

When confronted by the Jewish leaders, Jesus told them to live what he taught THEN they would know if it was true doctrine. In the warning against false prophets, Jesus told the disciples that "by their fruits ye shall know them."

What are the fruits of Joseph Smith Jr?

The most visible is the Book of Mormon: Another Testiment of Jesus Christ. There are 50000 missionaries world wide introducing people to this companion book of Scripture. Missionaries do not try to convince investigators of its divinity. Instead, the people are asked to read from the book then follow Moroni's promise that "ye may the truthfulness of it by the power of the Holy Ghost." Thousands each year an answer and choose to be baptized. I, too, invite you to read the Book of Mormon. I'm not asking you to get baptized or anything, but you should know just what you are attacking.

Joseph Smith Jr founded a Church with the same structure as the one organized by Jesus roughly 2000 years ago. In 1830, no other denominations had a leader with the title of Prophet and a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. I still don't know of a sect (other than those in the Restoration Movement) that has a Quorum of the Seventy.

You seem to focus on the fact that he brought back polygamy (which was practiced in Bible times, I might add).

As far as the Restoration being mentioned beforehand, it was. I'll turn to the words of James E. Talmage, author of The Great Apostasy (excellent book, by the way). Only the first chapter and part of the second have thus far been converted to HTML.

The whole second chapter is dedicated to Scriptural predictions of the Great Apostasy or falling away.

[quote name='II Timothy 3:1-7]This know also' date=' in the last days perilous times shall come.  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/quote']

Isaiah lamented: "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24:1-6).

Amos prophecied: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and not find it" (Amos 8:11-12).

[quote name='I Timothy 4:1-3]Now the Spirit speaketh expressly' date=' that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be rerceived with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.[/quote']

[quote name='II Thess 2:3-4]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Christ) shall not come' date=' except there come a falling away (apostasy) first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of Perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that which is worshipped; so that he as God sittith in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[/quote']

[quote name='hawkerdriver][quote=aloha_spirit]Last I checked' date=' Christianity itself hasn't united under a single faith AND less than half the world's population is even Christian.[/quote']

And it WON'T happen with religions such as yours that take on such an elitist attitude. "We don't acknowleged the Baptism of other religions." Catholicism does. May I remind you that it wasn't until the '60's that your faith actually allowed Blacks? Yeah, that's unity for ya.[/quote]

We do not claim to have a monopoly on righteousness. We just assert that "a house divided cannot stand" and that "God is not a God of confusion." There can only be one truth per question. There are so many sects because if people don't agree on an interpretation of the Bible, they either join another Church or start one. Likewise, at most one Church can hold the Priesthood. Without the Priesthood, baptism is merely an expression of faith. Only with the Priesthood does baptism wash away prior sins.

Since you brought up Blacks, I might as well correct your misconceptions. Blacks have always (since 1830) been free to join the Church of Jesus Christ. In the dark age of slavery, slaves needed permision from their owners (much how minors need parental permission today). What you've no doubt heard of was that Blacks were generally denied the Priesthood until 1978. We know of a few exceptions (Joseph Smith Jr ordained a Black to the office of Elder back in the 1830s).

Prophets and Apostles are needed today to prevent the spread of false doctrine. Didn't Paul express surprise at how quickly apostasy set in?

Catholicism does NOT recognize LdS baptism. To recognize baptisms of another sect would be acknowledge their Priesthood authority.

If a general apostasy did not occur, then Catholicism is the one and only true Church. If an apostasy happened, then the Priesthood was lost from the earth and an angel (aka heavenly messenger) would need to restore it.

[quote=hawkerdriver][quote=aloha_spirit]Restoration Movement[/quote]
What were they restoring? The faith? Or the Politics of the Church?[/quote]

They restored the Priesthood, first of all. Only with the Priesthood would they have authority to restore the Church.

[quote=hawkerdriver]Mormonism DID splinter from a prostestant sect but it escapes me at the moment which one. (He was raised a certain faith in New York. )[/quote]

WRONG! Before the religious fervor of 1820, the Smiths were non-denominational Christians. They believed in the Bible, but weren't baptized. During this revival, four Smiths (Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel, and Sophronia) joined the Presbyterians. Joseph attended meetings with several sects but didn't join any. See Joseph Smith History 1:5-9.

[quote name='hawkerdriver] In Ohio' date=' I can't remember which one it was that he was thinking about joining.[/quote']

Actually, this ferver was in Palmyra, New York. The Church was officially organized in Fayette, New York. In 1831 the believers migrated to Ohio for some reprive from the New York persecutions.

[quote=hawkerdriver]Why did they splinter primarily?  Cuz' the men in your faith wanted to have multiple wives.[/quote]

The Church was organized 6 April 1830. The revelation on plural marriage wasn't received until 12 July 1843.

[quote name='hawkerdriver]While we're at it' date=' what about restoration?  You've got sects in Utah who are tying to restore your church.  They're living as the early Mormons did with plural wives.[/quote']

At any given time, less than 5% of the LdS population was in a polygamous relationship.

The splinter groups in Utah believe that Wilford Woodruff was a fallen prophet when he announced that the Lord no longer required polygamy of the Saints.

[quote name='hawkerdriver][quote=aloha_spirit]Out of all the Christian denominations and sects out there' date=' only Catholicism and Mormonism have possible claims to the Priesthood given Peter by the Lord.[/quote']

Nope. Mormonism wasn't thought of for another 1,850 years.[/quote]

Joseph Smith Jr's First Vision occurred in the Spring of 1820 with the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ 10 years later.

[quote=hawkerdriver][quote=aloha_spirit]Joseph recorded that the Father and Son came down in a pillar of light and told him that through him (Joseph) the fulness of the gospel would be restored[/quote]

That's not what his diaries said. There's a great amount of conflict coming from Smith himself about this. Seems he can't get his story straight. [/quote]

Joseph Smith Jr delivered 7 accounts of the First Vision. There is some natural variation in them as he was addressing different groups of people under different circumstances. It should also be noted that very little of Joseph's diary was written by his own hand. As was the custom back then, his secretary would fill in the gaps.

[quote=hawkerdriver][quote=aloha_spirit]All the Protestant Churches declared that Catholicism was corrupt[/quote]

If you're referring to Martin Luther, go read his stuff. He was interested in exposing the corruption but not dividing the church. We know the next to leave Rome was England, and Henry wanted to divorce his wife and his Archbishop thought it would be really groovy to be the Pope for the Church of England. Talk about corruption.[/quote]

I'm lumping all Reformers and Protestants together. If they felt the Catholic Church was not corrupt, why did they break off?

I am aware that it was Martin Luther's followers who founded the Lutheran Church after his death.

[quote name='hawkerdriver][quote=aloha_spirit]So' date=' Mormonism was a restoration, not a reformation. Iit did not splinter off any other existing group[/quote']

Pahlease! So, it sounds to me like the Mormons like to think of themselves as the ones who founded CHRISTIANITY. It didn't exist before you guys showed up, right? Booshiat![/quote]

Go read the Book of Mormon, check out http://www.mormon.org then come back with what we really believe. We are not sex addicts. We don't put Joseph Smith Jr above the Saviour.

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#36 Sammy_Da_Cat

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 10:45 PM

Sammy, I understand your thinking. But you really don't think there's any base line connection between the different belief systems and religions? I see a lot of the same ideas expressed differently. Virgin Mary is similar to The pagan Goddess.

There are only small connections one could make between all religions. Small ideas, little similarities thats all. People often make these similarities into big “Beliefs” and call them religion. The bigger problem comes about when someone tries to practice them, and when I say practice I mean truly trying to understand the rights of each religion, confusion is created. Can you imagine a person sitting in Zen meditation one minute, going to communion, then preforming a pagan ceremony, and toping it off with a Masonic meeting? Each practice contains teachings that are tune to produce a certain spiritual outcome. They do not mesh together. I often here of “Christian Buddhists” They use the teachings of meditation to “Strengthen their Commitment to God”. In a way thats fine but they are really not learning Buddhist meditation they a learning how to pray. There is no Buddhism in it, they do not stand by the Four Noble Truths, they do not accept the Eightfold Path, and they do not follow the laws and rituals of a Buddhist. There is no way they could because Buddhism does not rely on gods and is not ruled by Christian beleifes. Its better to study one thing, learn its intricacies, truly understand its laws. Try to find a way to connect to it both mentally and spiritualy. If you find that its just not for you then find another way and leave the past behind. But don't mix and match everything to what you think fits in with your life because you will just end up confused and dazed. If you find that no religion gives you any meaning and you cant connect to it, thats fine too. You can still live your life as a good person and be the better for it.

But don't expect a person who studies a religious beleife to sit by idly while their beliefs are being twisted and in all essences ridiculed. Be prepared to be snapped at. For those who truly are trying to grasp a concept that you never understood or just want to get a feeling, for just ask. Most religious zealots like myself will be more then happy to rant and rave in lounge and writ until you are either utterly confused or finally understand it.

As for all of you who have beleifes that are being tested, DO NOT GIVE IN!! Fight it tooth and nail with every ounce of energy and knowledge you have. You can except that others believe different ideas and you can keep an open mind about the other persons point of view but don't give in simply because you get frustrated a little.

#37 bunnifer229

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 07:08 AM

  ever since i was born, i was taught that in the catholic church (which i am), you confess your sins to a priest, who is allowed by god to forgive sins in his name. i've never heard of that part of the bible. which part?


Confession:
It is a duty of all persons to confess all sins to the Lord and, when necessary, to the person or persons sinned against.  Sins against the public must be publicly confessed (D&C 42:88-93).  Other items may be confessed to a church official (bishop), or in many cases to the Lord alone.  Confession to a church official (in most cases the bishop) is necessary whenever one's transgression is of a nature for which the Church might impose loss of membership or other disciplinary action.  The bishop cannot and does not forgive sin, but he may judge the matter and waive the penalty that the Church might impose against the person.  The repentant sinner must still make confession and obtain forgiveness of the Lord.

Confession is a condition of forgiveness.  The Lord has said that true repentance is always accompanied by confession (D&C 58:43; 64:7).  Confession was clearly a requirement of forgiveness under the Law of Moses (Lev 5:5; 26:40; Num 5:7; Josh 7:19; Ezra 10:11).  John the Baptist baptized those who repented and confessed their sins (Matt 3:5-6).


Some sins carry disciplinary actions from the Church and it is up to the bishop (or other church official) to determine this punishment. The punishment is meant to humble the sinner and bring him back to Christ.

Sometimes I'll confess "lesser" sins which hold no recommended punishment from the Church to the bishop in order to obtain counsel about how to overcome my weaknesses.

We aare specifically not to judge others.....It is only for God to judge us on Judgement Day.
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#38 bunnifer229

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 07:15 AM

  ever since i was born, i was taught that in the catholic church (which i am), you confess your sins to a priest, who is allowed by god to forgive sins in his name. i've never heard of that part of the bible. which part?


Confession:
It is a duty of all persons to confess all sins to the Lord and, when necessary, to the person or persons sinned against.  Sins against the public must be publicly confessed (D&C 42:88-93).  Other items may be confessed to a church official (bishop), or in many cases to the Lord alone.  Confession to a church official (in most cases the bishop) is necessary whenever one's transgression is of a nature for which the Church might impose loss of membership or other disciplinary action.  The bishop cannot and does not forgive sin, but he may judge the matter and waive the penalty that the Church might impose against the person.  The repentant sinner must still make confession and obtain forgiveness of the Lord.

Confession is a condition of forgiveness.  The Lord has said that true repentance is always accompanied by confession (D&C 58:43; 64:7).  Confession was clearly a requirement of forgiveness under the Law of Moses (Lev 5:5; 26:40; Num 5:7; Josh 7:19; Ezra 10:11).  John the Baptist baptized those who repented and confessed their sins (Matt 3:5-6).


Some sins carry disciplinary actions from the Church and it is up to the bishop (or other church official) to determine this punishment. The punishment is meant to humble the sinner and bring him back to Christ.

Sometimes I'll confess "lesser" sins which hold no recommended punishment from the Church to the bishop in order to obtain counsel about how to overcome my weaknesses.

We aare specifically not to judge others.....It is only for God to judge us on Judgement Day.

Jesus is the only one who can forgive our sins and once we accept him has our Lord and Saviour and Believe he is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for OUR sins ( which put him there) then and only then are we saved by Grace and repent for actions.

Nobody gets to the Father execpt through JESUS CHRIST!
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#39 Vampchick21

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 08:34 AM

Jesus is the only one who can forgive our sins and once we accept him has our Lord and Saviour and Believe he is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for OUR sins ( which put him there) then and only then are we saved by Grace and repent for actions.

Nobody gets to the Father execpt through JESUS CHRIST!

John 20:23
23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven

[i]James 5:16[i/]
16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective..


And may I also point out to you hun, that this isn't the place to look for converts or to preach, but for people from all cultures and all faiths to discuss and analyze the many different belief systems found in the world.

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#40 little_light

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 09:45 AM

Wow! What a thread! :blink:

We all have our different views on this subject and who's to say who's right?

But my little thoughts on it would be to ask questions!
Sometimes jumping to give an answer may not leave room for understanding or meditating on making sure thats what one may agree to the fullest......

Bunnifer, You said that God is all knowing and in controll...But then you said he leaves us room for our human error?
If he is in ALL CONTROLL he would be responsible for our human error as well...That is if he is in ALL CONTROLL...

Then some say that we need to ask Jesus to forgive us for our sins.....Not a man or a priest (lets break this down) or a minister or our mothers or our fathers....On and on.....So is it only when we get on our knees to pray? Or walk around and do something wrong then go "Ooooops"! Sorry God!

What is sin?

Some say there is no Satan.....Some say there is no hell....
I say who is he? Where did he come from? And can you tell me where Hell is? Do you have the directions there?

And The Divine Law of Karma? Some may not belive in Karma...


I enjoy everyone's thoughts on every subject we talk about...And some seem to push their way's on others...If its true to you then thats what matters..... :)
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#41 Sammy_Da_Cat

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 10:54 AM

And The Divine Law of Karma? Some may not belive in Karma...

Great point!

I might add that anyone who truly believes in Karma would know better then to actual post in a thread that deals with Christian beliefs. They don’t mix there is very little connection that can be made between the two. So leave it be. Discussions on Karma would be in a whole different thread. I know what you are all saying “So why did he start this in the first place?” “Why does he keep going on and on?” First of all I started this mess to prove that mixing religions is can get pretty confusing. Second I really want to know what religion Petunia is studying. And third because no one has said “shut the bleep up!” Your all to nice about it. I knew my views have no significance in the conversation whatsoever and are probably making people frustrated, angry, and confused! Yet you keep letting me go on! If this were a thread about the concepts of salvation by reduction of Karmic debt (bondage), I would have a lot to say about it. I would have even made sure my posts made more sense! But the thread really has no significance when put to the laws of Karma. So lets keep Karma out of this one!

#42 aloha_spirit

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 12:19 PM

And may I also point out to you hun, that this isn't the place to look for converts or to preach, but for people from all cultures and all faiths to discuss and analyze the many different belief systems found in the world.

Sorry, I got a little carried away. I will try to only correct misunderstandings as posted by others.

I didn't lose my mind - I have it backed up on a disk ... somewhere


#43 hawkerdriver

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 01:23 PM

Look Aloha, you made a statement that I find laughable about being a non-denominational church and how the Mormons didn't splinter off of any denomination. Where did it orginate then? Never mind, you'll find a way to change or reshape the facts to fit your beliefs.

Joseph Smith Jr founded a Church with the same structure as the one organized by Jesus roughly 2000 years ago

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Really? Then why doesn't your church have women as high ranking clergy? Vamp can back me up on this one: the very earliest Christian church was a communal meal, presided over by WOMEN. They were also practicing Jews who had yet to reconcile what customs they were going to keep and which ones they didn't need to follow.

Oh, and the church that was organized by Christ was the Holy Roman Church.

In 1830, no other denominations had a leader with the title of Prophet and a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. I still don't know of a sect (other than those in the Restoration Movement) that has a Quorum of the Seventy.


These are Mormon beliefs and terms. Hence, no need for them in any other Christian denomination. So, direct to where CHRIST talked about this Quorum. AND don't refer the a Lds publication. I prefer to the real deal, the good ole' generic bible.

You seem to focus on the fact that he brought back polygamy (which was practiced in Bible times, I might add).

And I might add two things: Good old SMithypoo, seduced several of the wives of other men and polygamy was not common for a Jew in Christ's time.


As for my misconception about blacks:

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits."

-Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, pages 66-67


There is some natural variation in them as he was addressing different groups of people under different circumstances.

Uh, this is where I stop. Now we're moving into waters of justification. No, he couldn't get his story straight.

I'm lumping all Reformers and Protestants together

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Please don't.


Go read the Book of Mormon, check out http://www.mormon.org then come back with what we really believe.


No thank you. I would rather read what Christ said. Which you got to admit a bunch of different guys wrote at different times and were pretty close in what each other was reporting.

We're always getting subtle lessons on Mormonism. Why stop now?
Bubbles are proof that ghosts exist.This person still under construction.

#44 DSF

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 01:35 PM

Up until this point, this discussion has been a heated one. It is now turning into something uglier.

Let's remember that these are people's opinions and no matter how strongly you may disagree with someone, that does not mean that it is okay to mock somone.

We are here to learn from each other, try to understand each other, and perhaps accept some new views. We are not here to kick someone when they are down and have admitted that they got carried away.

Let's get this back on track or it will be locked.

#45 petunia4998

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 02:03 PM

Sammy, I guess you could say that my religion is metaphysics. The church I attended called itself metaphysical christian, but we don't believe in Jesus Chist as a person who died to save our sins, just that we recognized him as one of the master teachers, as we do the other ones. And I think we tagged on the word "christian" so that people wouldn't think we were devil worshippers.
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