21 replies to this topic

[Gregory]

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Not to mention St. Patrick and the High King's Druid  

Just as well you're not mentioning them, since I have no idea what you're talking about.

[NocturnalCantaloupe]

Yup, Paul did too, and if I am not mistaken some that did... died instantaniously.. or so the story goes.

[Vampchick21]

St. Patrick and the Druids.

Copied and pasted from  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11554a.htm

It was on 26 March, Easter Sunday, in 433, that the eventful assembly was to meet at Tara, and the decree went forth that from the preceeding day the fires throughout the kingdom should be extinguished until the signal blaze was kindled at the royal mansion. The chiefs and Brehons came in full numbers and the druids too would muster all their strength to bid defiance to the herald of good tidings and to secure the hold of their superstition on the Celtic race, for their demoniac oracles had announced that the messenger of Christ had come to Erin. St. Patrick arrived at the hill of Slane, at the opposite extremity of the valley from Tara, on Easter Eve, in that year the feast of the Annunciation, and on the summit of the hill kindled the Paschal fire. The druids at once raised their voice. "O King", (they said) "live for ever; this fire, which has been lighted in defiance of the royal edict, will blaze for ever in this land unless it be this very night extinguished." By order of the king and the agency of the druids, repeated attempts were made to extinguish the blessed fire and to punish with death the intruder who had disobeyed the royal command. But the fire was not extinguished and Patrick shielded by the Divine power came unscathed from their snares and assaults. On Easter Day the missionary band having at their head the youth Benignus bearing aloft a copy of the Gospels, and followed by St. Patrick who with mitre and crozier was arrayed in full episcopal attire, proceeded in processional order to Tara. The druids and magicians put forth all their strength and employed all their incantations to maintain their sway over the Irish race, but the prayer and faith of Patrick achieved a glorious triumph. The druids by their incantations overspread the hill and surrounding plain with a cloud of worse then Egyptian darkness. Patrick defied them to remove that cloud, and when all their efforts were made in vain, at his prayer the sun sent forth its rays and the brightest sunshine lit up the scene. Again by demoniac power the Arch-Druid Lochru, like Simon Magus of old, was lifted up high in the air, but when Patrick knelt in prayer the druid from his flight was dashed to pieces upon a rock. Thus was the final blow given to paganism in the presence of all the assembled chieftains. It was, indeed, a momentous day for the Irish race.

[Gregory]

Ah ... and Simon Magus; that was the person Paul dueled, right?

[Ectoplazzum]

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Oh yes.... depends on what your definition of magic is.  Is not a prayer a ritual.  is not an answered prayer the result of something magical?  

A prayer is ritual, but it's a petition, a request for something.  Magick refers to doing a spell, not to ask for something, but to make it be that way.  That's the main difference between the two.

A prayer to a Saint or to the Christian God automatically includes that person in your "spell" (for lack of a better word).  If the higher being decides that what you are petitioning for is not to your benefit, your request will be denied.  When a magick spell is done, there is no asking.  The spell is done with the intent to cause the desired change and, if done correctly, the change will occur.

For this reason, a large percentage of witches do not evoke deities for help with their spells.  It seems like it would be beneficial to do so, but if you think about it, what if the deity (who now has a hand in the outcome of the spell because you gave them permission to) decides that it would be better off it you didn't get what you wanted?  Or worse yet, if you got what THEY wanted you to have?  Some deities have awfully warped senses of humor sometimes, and it's safer to keep them out of spellwork.  

Christians don't have that advantage.  They are not allowed to demand anything of their God.  They must petition for his help, and then what he says goes.  If he wants them to have it, they get it.  If he doesn't, they dont.

There'a huge difference between prayer and spellwork.

Elle

[Vampchick21]

But comparing it to prayer is an easy way to explain it to those that ask.  

[Ectoplazzum]

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Living this close to Baja, I've seen and talked with Mexican Brujas, healers and scryers mostly and they are very, very Catholic

Yes, they are, but they also work with the guardians of the people they are doing the spellwork for, and if the guardians don't feel that something should be granted, it isn't.

As far as them being Christian and being allowed to practice magick, if you think about it, one of the most famous grimoirs in history was written by Pope Gregory.  The Christian Church is no stranger to magick, they just don't like their practitioners having that sense of power.  In some sects (Santeria is one) the fact that the people are doing magick is overlooked.  However, for the general public (Christian-wise) to be doing magick, it is usually looked at as an abomination and something that just isn't done.

Elle