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No God(s)?


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#16 hawkerdriver

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 07:54 AM

Yeah, kinda like trying to prove ghosts exist.
Bubbles are proof that ghosts exist.This person still under construction.

#17 anasuya

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 07:56 AM

I had this debate with a pastor friend-of-the-family. He would tell me that his God is the true God because it was written. God sent the message to Moses (and other prophets, of course), and it was written, and it IS the word of God. No question. This was the response I received whenever I asked for proof that his God was the "right" God. Like Vamp's story, this proved to me that he read it in the Bible, was told it was true, therefore had faith in that statement. Nothing wrong with that, but it still didn't prove his god was the right god. I battled with myself for YEARS over this issue. I was so afraid that if I didn't believe in his god, that I would go to hell, simply because I had made the conscious decision NOT to believe in it. Ironically, I believed in his hell, but not his god. Why do you think that is? lol. I still can't answer that question.

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#18 hawk2k3

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 09:30 AM

I had this debate with a pastor friend-of-the-family. He would tell me that his God is the true God because it was written. God sent the message to Moses (and other prophets, of course), and it was written, and it IS the word of God. No question. This was the response I received whenever I asked for proof that his God was the "right" God.


Oh boy, your pastor friend of th family would have a lot of competition for the state of God just because it was written. From the likes of Ancient Egypt and Greece religions to many of todays non-christian religions. MoonChild from his posts seems tobe one of these people who believe that there is one god and one god only. While I on the other hand take two approachs, I believe there is either no god or there are multiple gods(and possibly goddesses)

By todays standards many parts of the christian bible are bunk. I believe that there is proof Romans did nail people to a cross back then, but there is no proof that Jesus was even real or even if he was that he may have been ahead of his time. The Adam and Eve story can't be real due to science proving that over time genetics 'retard' and the fact that people have found an evolution path for humans...there might even still be a couple branches still alive out there.

#19 Vampchick21

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 09:38 AM

There is proof that the Romans crucified people.  It's in written contemporary histories, surviving Roman records and in archeology.  

I ain't touching the Jesus thing :)  Someone will smack me upside the head there.  BTW...did you know that some really crazy person put forth the hypothsis that Jesus is actually the result of the apostles taking a mind bending halucnegetic mushroom?  

Adam and Eve is a creation story.  All cultures and religions have a creation story.  And at all points in history, the people of any given religion believed wholeheartedly in the truth of their creation story.  

What parts of the Christian Bible do you consider bunk?  

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#20 anasuya

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 09:41 AM

Well, I personally think Jesus was a real person. Wether or not he was the son of God remains to be seen. I think people just get the information wrong over the course of history. Take King Arthur for example. There are various sources that say someone similar to the "legend" actually existed, but the legend was warped and turned into this mystical thing. As Vamp already said, the only way to know for certain is die and find out the hard way. lol.

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#21 hawk2k3

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 09:46 AM

Actually I believe the bible(possible all other religions too) are nothing but story that some people took for fact. All religions have a creation story? Um..I don't think the Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Greece had ones. Cause as far as I know about Greece one, The myth of Zeus overthrowing the Titans seems to actually be the first known myth of the Olympian Gods.

#22 MoonChild

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 09:46 AM

JESUS was indeed a real person. There are references about the coming of Jesus in the early Hindu scriptures and I have also heard of the possible end of his life - as it happened. Since I have no more of knowledge, I will try to find out more ;D

hey, you don;t have to die to know, you only need to TUNE IN!

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#23 Vampchick21

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:05 AM

Actually I believe the bible(possible all other religions too) are nothing but story that some people took for fact. All religions have a creation story? Um..I don't think the Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Greece had ones. Cause as far as I know about Greece one, The myth of Zeus overthrowing the Titans seems to actually be the first known myth of the Olympian Gods.



Oh hawk2k3!  Yer talking to the history/mytholgy/religion/archeology buff here!  :)

Egyptian Creation http://www.emayzine....es/egyptian.htm

"According to the Egyptian account of creation, only the ocean existed at first. Then Ra, the sun, came out of an egg (a flower, in some versions) that appeared on the surface of the water. Ra brought forth four children, the gods Shu and Geb and the goddesses Tefnut and Nut. Shu and Tefnut became the atmosphere. They stood on Geb, who became the earth, and raised up Nut, who became the sky. Ra ruled over all. Geb and Nut later had two sons, Set and Osiris, and two daughters, Isis and Nephthys. Osiris succeeded Ra as king of the earth, helped by Isis, his sister-wife. Set, however, hated his brother and killed him. Isis then embalmed her husband's body with the help of the god Anubis, who thus became the god of embalming. The powerful charms of Isis resurrected Osiris, who became king of the netherworld, the land of the dead. Horus, who was the son of Osiris and Isis, later defeated Set in a great battle and became king of the earth."

Greek  http://www.the-panth...ntroduction.php

(partial copy/paste...long text)

"From the formless confusion of Chaos, brooded over by unbroken darkness came three children; into this shapeless nothing they were thrown. Erebus, which is the unfathomable depth where death dwells and his two sisters, Nyx, or night, and Gaea, the earth. In the whole universe there was nothing else; all was black, empty, silent, endless.

                           .... Black-winged Night
       Into the bosom of Erebus dark and deep
       Laid a wind-born egg, and as the seasons rolled
       Forth sprang Love, the longed-for, shining, with
       wings of gold.
                                       [Aristophanes]"



Norse Creation Myth  http://todd.reimer.c...y.html#Creation

(partial copy/paste...long text)

"In the beginning there was no earth or heaven, no sand nor sea nor cooling waves. There was only Ginnungagap, a great void. In the north there was Nilfheim, and from Nilfheim's spring flowed eleven rivers, known as Elivagar. As the rivers flowed south, they cooled and hardened into ice. In the south, there was the world of Muspelheim, a firey world. The northern part of Ginnungagap became filled with the ice and hoar frost from the Elivagar. When that ice formed and was firm, a drizzling rain arose from the venomous rivers and poured over the ice where it cooled into rime, and one layer of ice formed on top of the other throughout Ginnungagap. The southern part of Ginnungagap was lit by the sparks and glowing embers which flew out of Muspelheim. Where the heat from the south met the coolness in the north the ice was thawed and it began to drip and by the might that sent the heat, life appeared in the drops of the running fluid and this fluid formed into the likeness of a man. He was given the name Ymir.

As the frost continued to thaw another form was created. This form became a cow called Audhumbla. From her teats flowed four rivers of milk and it was upon this that Ymir was fed. While he fed, Ymir slept, and while he slept a male and female frost giant grew from his armpits and one leg fathered a six headed troll with the other leg."

Those are just three examples.  

As for the Bible, the Old Testement actually contains the history of the Ancient Hebrews.  The New Testement can be seen as an account of the life of one man and his teaching.  

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#24 Yosei

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:20 AM

I, too, wonder why the reason for monotheism...For one thing, I just can't see it likely that ANY being would *choose* to have only subordinate creatures of lesser intelligence, and that is what one implies by saying that a truly omnipotent and perfect being chose to create US instead of equals to socialize with.   As for the main question, I believe I would feel very depressed and self-destructive indeed if I were forced to return to the athiestic ideas I was raised with, but I can see how a person who enjoys the physical world instead of feeling hampered and constricted by it would probably not.  However, I think the idea of a solitary all-knowing, all-seeing and flawless being in charge of the world, (instead of, as I believe, many who are basically like us only wiser, smarter, and more powerful), would be just plain terrifying and not at all comforting, especially if you consider us as being judged by it.  Who wants to go before a judge who's never had a parking ticket?
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#25 anasuya

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:28 AM

lol. Yosei. Those are good points. I think, having been raised Catholic, that the comfort of believing in one ultimate divine source comes from the understanding that this divine force will care for you, help carry you in times of sorrow and trouble. Of course, the main reason I converted from Catholocism (or Christianity as a whole) was because I just felt sorrow and trouble in times of sorrow and trouble. lol.

The one thing I couldn't wrap my brain, or more importantly my FAITH, around was what you had stated about why would one divine being want to surround themselves with "lesser" beings. The opinion I ended up with (and this is just a personal beleif) was that I found it rather egotistical of a god to create beings to merely worship it. But again, faith is a funny thing and allows us each to find reasons to believe in those things we each believe in.

I find comfort in my beliefs, therefore don't fear an afterlife. Others who believe differently I'm sure do the same. Having never been an athiest, however, I'm not sure I could be at peace with the idea of living one life and that's it. And what if this life totally sucks? Lol. It's not a comforting thought to believe that nothing but this sucky life is all you get. Bridget, however, has an extremely positive outlook on it!

Ana
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#26 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:35 AM

That I think is the point Ana, that Bridget makes.  it's an outlook.  I think the question is more of a "how would your outlook change and how would you deal with things if God/s was oproven to not exist.

I don't think it's meant to be a debate over whether God/Jesus what have you exist or not, but a "what if".

I'd hate to see thinks get the level of another topic I know.
Is the art of life, living somewhere in between?

#27 anasuya

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:42 AM

If I had started out an atheist, it would probably be easier to finally be proven right, should someone miraculously come up with proof that there is no divine creator. But, beleiving in a god (however you want to view him/her) makes me think that the foundation of my life would be ripped from beneath me should I discover there is no god at all. However positive it is to have an outlook such as Bridgets, I think I'd let the sorrow of everyday life drag me down should I discover that god didn't exist. I fear I would totally give up, and waste away what little life I had left. I'm not saying it's right... quite the contrary, but I'm a depressive sort and this is what I'd likely do.  I'd think to myself, well heck, only 50 some odd years left to do everything, go everywhere and experience everything that I want with limited resources with which to do it. Psht. Might as well throw in the towel now. lol. I'm honestly jealous of people who can just take life as it comes and appreciate what they get when they get it without hoping for more. I find comfort in the idea of reincarnation, for instance, because it allows me the opportunity to believe that I can be Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Wiccan, etc, and I have a whole lifetime, each time, to experience these things. I don't work well under pressure. lol. I don't think I could learn to appreciate we have to fit everything into one 80 year span.

Wow, this has turned into a GREAT conversation. I love hearing about other peoples faiths!

Ana
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#28 hawk2k3

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:52 AM

Oh hawk2k3!  Yer talking to the history/mytholgy/religion/archeology buff here!  :)

Egyptian Creation http://www.emayzine....es/egyptian.htm

Greek  http://www.the-panth...ntroduction.php


Norse Creation Myth  http://todd.reimer.c...y.html#Creation


It's been awhile since I've read the myths, I believe I didn't say anything about Norse myths ;) ;D Now here's something for The one defending God

Why would God create human with free will and some uncontrollable things like sexuality. In a sense Why would he created people to only have some of them be homosexual? Yet it also says God is against it, so why did he do it?

I'd like to see you answer that  ;D

#29 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:53 AM

One thing I think happens in religion is a build up of a reliance on another “being”. That you can’t do it alone and that your life is meaningless without the  “being/s”.  I think this has a nasty effect on a persons mental stability over time or in a disastrous situation, such as what is being presented in the original question.  I have a very odd outlook, that is not easy to explain.  In this situation, I’d shrug my shoulders and see “God” as having filled a role and helped me learn out to be a proper human being.  I still have great power and abilities of my own, I have ways to handle guilt and my conscience in a productive, enriching way.  I would feel sorry, quite honestly, for those that were so tied to the taught ways of religion (dependency).  I agree Ana, I think that overwhelming depression of futility would overcome them.  Religion, the bible and all the other religions and books, have their place.  But it’s taught wrong in my view.  It’s taught by people that put it upon themselves to “lead” people.  People then follow and then lose their individuality and self purpose.  Self empowerment are not taught and are actually frowned upon.
Is the art of life, living somewhere in between?

#30 anasuya

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:55 AM

Wow, Hawk, that's off topic. lol. But a quick answer would be that God offers us free will in hope that we will willingly and freely chose him over the acts He deems wrong or inappropriate, that we will somehow find more satisfaction in our love for Him, than in those things he condemns. My take on all the Sunday school lessons anyway.

Ana
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