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In the Beginning...


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#1 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 10:41 AM

I've been reading the Old Testament to help a friend with her own bible studies*snickers-neither I nor the Book combusted spontaneously*you know, you both read a given book, then discuss your interpretations of it. While I was reading, I started to think*this may be a little bit controvertial and as such, I do apologize*was God new to creation? Was this His first assignment as a Divinity??

I'm not going to debate Adam and Eve as I believe this accomplished more good then ill, a fortunate fall, as if you're granted paradise to begin with, you have no sense of appreciation for what it took to earn that sense of Grace, but that's my own interp. Though, technically, we can argue that driving them out for a simple matter of disobediance was kind of harsh. It wasn't simple disobediance of course, this was a matter of wishing to be God's equal by eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Simple banishment may have been enough, but was the matter of having armed Seraphim guarding
the entrance makes you wonder.

By way of example I was thinking of Lot's wife, turned to a pillar of salt for natural curiousity, by her looking back at the destruction of Sodom, her birthplace.

One of my job responsibilities at work is training and assessing supervisors and staff and I have seen outside hires or inhouse promotions go for the Sword of Heaven approach, you know, they punish infractions harshly to assert their position. They do calm down once they realize that this isn't the best approach. And there is a matter of the change in how God's represented from Old to New Testament, from a God of Wrath to a God of Love...what do you all think?
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#2 Gregory

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 11:30 AM

I've been reading the Old Testament to help a friend with her own bible studies*snickers-neither I nor the Book combusted spontaneously*you know, you both read a given book, then discuss your interpretations of it. While I was reading, I started to think*this may be a little bit controvertial and as such, I do apologize*was God new to creation? Was this His first assignment as a Divinity??


I think the implication was that He was "new" to creation, yes.  I don't recall anything that contradicts that.

represented from Old to New Testament, from a God of Wrath to a God of Love...what do you all think?


I think that as long as He's planning to burn nonbelievers in Hell for eternity, the Christian God cannot be termed a "God of Love."  And wasn't it Paul (it might have been another disciple, but it was definitely New Testiment) who is is supposed to have struck two people dead because they didn't donate all their money to the church?
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#3 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 11:38 AM

That's a really interesting topic there Whispers.... It's the psychology of God.  Which, I am surprised has not made you spontaniously combust.  J/K!

No, we were given free will, so there is no harm in that... I don't think.  It's the man made churches and sects/denominations that I feel create the "do not question God" mentality.

WOw, you know... that is one thing I have never considered pondering. Wow, it bring sup suo many other questions too.

Right off the bat, probably a good controlling point to keep in mind is that man chose what books to use in the bible.  Man, created the churches; not of faith and of the poeple necessarily, but of the organization, the controlling body, the overseeing council, the committee if you will.  So, I suppose right off the bat, we are probably missing some valuable interpretation somewhere.  It also makes you wonder why the original creators of the combined works decided to use the chanced upon letters from Paul to the churches.  

I must let it be known, that after being a person baptized under the Missouri Synod Lutheran church, I have found in my later life that the church as an organization is a hinderance to the free will God gave to humanity. Blasphemy I speak!!!!!!!!! So be it.... I am off topic sorry.

Back to the question.  WOW! I say again!

What do I think?  at this point Whisper, I have NO... idea.  I don't even know where to begin to come up with an answer yet.

Ok lemme try...

The original texts were Law, used by the Jews were just that.  It was law.  It was you do this, this will happen.  You do this thing, ans this will be bestowed upon you.

The Book is one thing, Gods TRUE intention is another thing.  I personally believe, that God became so frustrated with our seemingly blind and scewed interpretation of his word, actions and deeds, that he probably did become upset to the point of wanting to just wipe us all out and start over.  He wanted so much for us to love him and really "Get it" that our progress was probably very disheartening.

Enter Jesus and the New testiment. Again, keep in mind these are books hand picked to provide a still controlled and lawful "curb" to follow, yet the wors that are in the books presented to us are still holding many secrets that I don't think the original collaberators saw or understood.  But agian, different topic, sorry.   I see the New testiment as God saying, ok, here it is, this is what I REALLY mean people.  This is my son, he is part of me, learn from his life, the way you can live you life.  If you live you life this way, you can use the gift I give you for this purpose, to better yourself and others.  

I think the true secret is still hidden for the most part, with each "church" coming up with it's own interpretation- one that is  still able to hold control and give importance to their organization.  This whole control thing goes back to Paul and Peter strongly disagreeing with how the church should be run.  There were so many things they did not agree on.

God I think had to learn some patience.  I think we as his creations begged and pleaded enough and promised change enough that God gave us a second, third, forth, lol fifth change... however many, to finally say "ok, we will now try to understand and "get" what you are teaching us.

With that... I say unto you

"AHHHHH!!! I'm burning!!!!!!!!!!"  *poof!*
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#4 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 11:49 AM

I hear what you are saying Gregory.  But I think we were given an ability to understand God's power to the point that anyone that trully understands how it works, can wield it.  This means, that you could possibly wield it for your own purposes (Paul wanted people to give to the church.  Paul was a nutball and an extremist (MORE BLASPHEMY! hehe).  The event was added/allowed into the finall compilation becasue it was a strong way of saying, hey... give to the church!).

God's final lesson (Jesus's life) was that of uncolored love, kindness, and understanding.  We see fit now, just as the people that put the bible together back then saw fit, to interpret.  Unfortunately, most of us now can only interpret what was given to us in its final form.

Pauls letters are not God's final lesson.... More blasphemy I spew.  These were just letters that I am sure he did not intend to have placed into a holy book of the final ultimate truth, which if anyone thinks otherwise will burst into a fiery ball of flame (watches closely to see if Whisper and I begin to smolder). It must have been agreed upon that Pauls words were strong enough to prove a point and to allow the church control and the final authority.
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#5 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 11:54 AM

Also, remember that Paul, who was once Saul (if that is how your are refering to) was not an original disciple.  God supposedly zapped him with great uberness and scared/made Saul "understand"  what is was all about. In fact, I'd say he was never a disciple, but someone that was very key, in creating what we today think of when you here the word church in the context of an organization of religion.
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#6 freyjasdottir

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 02:10 PM

Actually Saul believed his life work was to kill all Christians, and the change he underwent was dramatic to say the least, another reason why points he made would seem important
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#7 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 03:53 PM

Yup!

   Now, my wife had a great perseonal idea on it... Though I think I'd fail at relaying it.  Gah.  i get it, but it's hard to explain back.

I have to read the olds testament again.

She explained Lots Wife like this:

First, remember than most of the stories in the bible are written in parables, even i nthe old testament. Leaving behind Sodom and Gamorah  was like leaving behind the old, sinful life.  You are leaving behind the bad things you have done.  You do not want to look behind you, because the temptation to look behind you will casue you to want to go back, you will miss the old ways of your sinful past.  If you look back, you have given in to temptation.  you have not used the "Will power" God gave you to make the sensible choice, which is to move ahead in your new sinless and guiltless life.  Once you look back, you fall back in to ruin, back into that destruction of the mind once again by longing for the old habits.

Also, remember how much older the old testament is compared to the new testament.  Things were written, explained and dealt with much differently.  Man made laws and rules around those extreme events.

I also want to read about Adam and Eve once more becuase my wife mentioned that they did not have free will until after the apple.  the apple was the beginning of free will.
I cannot confirm nor deny that, Ihave to read it for myself.

I have more thoughts, but i want to reread the beginnings again.
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#8 Gregory

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 04:34 PM

I also want to read about Adam and Eve once more becuase my wife mentioned that they did not have free will until after the apple.  the apple was the beginning of free will.


That doesn't make sense to me.  They were thrown out of the Garden for disobeying God, yes?  But if they didn't have free will before eating the apple, they couldn't have disobeyed him.

But I think your wife is probably right about Lot's wife.  I always did wonder about that one.
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#9 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 04:52 PM

*Nudges the pile of ash that was Akthra*I think we have a winning thread.

Hi, Gregory, Well said but lets remember that the bible, while it may be inspired by God's word, the Bible is written by men and as such, what is written may not be what was said or actually happened since the closest thing to a trained Observer was Luke, the Physician. Also it is not uncommon for a zealot to believe that God believes the way he does. As a kind of irreverent example, lets say one of the Gospel writers was a shepherd and hated it when people rode through or cut off his flock on horseback. When he begins to write the gospels and epistles to the heads of other churches, he proclaims that he has a vision in which God told him that sheep are sacred creatures and all must give way before them*snickers*You'll note that God's edicts and acts seem to support the Writer's Prejudices or beliefs.

WOW...Masque, good point! Paul was a Christian Hunter*ironic
as that is*and had a very dramatic conversion, literally struck blind physically which was a horrible thing back then
and had to seek out someone for help he ordinarily probably would have dragged before the Sanhedrin for execution. But as a convert, something of a zealot too, he was a little extreme, but that follows.

Matthew and Paul were birds of a feather in kind of an odd way, Matthew was a gentile and a tax collector, he was a little left wing in his beliefs and did kind of play around with words until the meaning better reflected his message*in
a few parables from Acts and in his own Gospel, he'd drop words and by so doing changed the meaning*Paul was also a convert and as such mayhave beena bit extreme in his duties to validate himself...be fair, Ankthra, he wasn't a nut he was just a bit...different in his approach*wheels out bandsaw so you can start making decoys of yourself*
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#10 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 04:57 PM

But Adam did have a choice, to resist his wife or to wonder at why God forbade them to touch that tree...it doesn't seem fair though that we'd be punished for our curious nature :-X
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#11 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 05:19 PM

*The pile of ash speaks while quickly scattering decoys about*

   Yup! Saul/Paul was a Christian's worst nightmare before his conversion.  

   I love watching those shows narrated by that guy from Deep Space Nine... can't remember the actors name.

Great point made with the shepard analogy.  and yes, we must keep in mind that it was man intrepeted.  I am certainly not glued to any idea with Adam and Eve.  I just wonder if it's not something that could be faith shattering to think about.  That's my own Lowself/subconscious feeling a tad threatened by the way. heheh.

   Perhaps there is also a different part of God speaking at different times of the bible's history. Accoring to Christianity (and a position I still adhere to) is that god is three parts in one.  So perhaps the lawful, strict reactions would be God the father, The loving good news of the New testament is Jesus his son, and the perhaps the later letters to the churches from Paul is the Holy Spirit acting through Paul.  

Hmmm.... *tries prancing around randomly, but feels the beginnings of another Ion beam from heaven making a connection.*



 
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#12 MoonChild

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 09:06 PM

...it doesn't seem fair though that we'd be punished for our curious nature :-X


It can also be conferred that a person "lives on" through their children. I mean, eternity in a sense. It is considered that the Parents LIVE ON because the children are left nehind and take on the "traditions" and "culture" and "lineage" forward. So in that sense, well, Adam and Eve lives on and are being punished eternally ;D Just a thought!

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#13 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 03 February 2004 - 07:09 AM

Hi,Moon, I think that may depend on both the culture and the
child in question...lets face it, there are many people who forego family or cultural traditions/identity-this is more common in the US, I suspect, since we do try to Westernize everything, including family/personal names and there is more of a stress on learning English than retaining one's own language but that changes from time to time.

Hey, Akthra*Ducks under cerulean beam and belly crawls over to an Akthra decoy holding a Bible*Hmmm...that's a very intriguing point if I'm reading you right on the higher, lower and medium self, maybe a matter of Ego and Superego "HEY! I saw that! You looked at that girl's legs...you are SO gonna fry for all eternity!" LOL*I
think its more frightening that Freud's breakdown of the subconscious applies to God and the Trinity. Personally, I'd
prefer it if God'd just stick to electrifying parts of the maze or giving random reinforcement.

I think we can go around and around on the Adam and Eve thing as far as the harshness of the consequences or even if
Lucifer's role was necessary, I believe they already knew it to be the Tree of Knowledge and I think basic human nature would have taken over, even though they were warned that they'd die if they were to eat of its fruit...not trying to sound arrogant, but if someone were to tell you "DON'T THINK ABOUT ORANGES!!" what's going to be the first thing that fills your mind?
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#14 MoonChild

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 10:07 AM

BANG BANG THE BIG BANG! and came the evolution!

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#15 MoonChild

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 04:48 AM

I personally feel that the Adam, Eve, Snake, Apple and Garden were all symbolic and was a well narrated story so as to instill the essence of existence into the masses. What better way to propogate the essence than through a good story that can be visualized!

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