34 replies to this topic

[Darkwoods]

What an interesting topic, Carlotta, thanks for bringing it up! I too, thought all atheists were like my Dad, nonbelievers in spirits. He is strictly a scientific person, not believing what cannot be proven. Even though my sister and I have told him of our paranormal experiences, he doesn't believe it.
So I guess he would have to experience something himself in order to believe it exists...but maybe not, as he'd come up with some kind of scientific explanation.
Anyway, I've enjoyed reading this discussion!

[Caniswalensis]

carlotta, on Aug 24 2009, 03:27 AM, said:

To Canis: A belief in nothing is still a belief... So you have your beliefs, just like anyone else.

Hmmmmm......

I get your point, but there is a difference, if you look at it closely.

I think what you are saying is that a person's beliefs are guided by their personal philosophies and viewponts. That is true, and we all have our own personal bias and personal philosophies and viewponts. As you say, I am no different from anyone else in that regard.

But choosing not to believe in something like a god, or ghosts, or aliens visitors when there is no objective evidence that they exist is quite different than believing in them without objective evidence.

Logically, our starting point should be to not believe in something without sufficient evidence to warrant our belief. It requires no evidence to disbelieve something, and no one can be reasonably required to prove that something does not exist. That's part of my philosphy.

If someone's personal philosophy allows them to accept something as true without good evidence, that is Their choice, and I don't necessarily look down on them for it.

Regatds, Canis

[MoonChild]

Presence of God is not objective Canis but subjective. Now that is a major paradigm shift most people who seek "scientific' evidence needs.

[Caniswalensis]

MoonChild, on Aug 27 2009, 01:55 AM, said:

Presence of God is not objective Canis but subjective.

Yes, that is what I said. There is no objective evidence for it. I have no personal subjective evidence for it, either. That's not for lack of trying, BTW. Your results may vary.

MoonChild, on Aug 27 2009, 01:55 AM, said:

Now that is a major paradigm shift most people who seek "scientific' evidence needs.

I am pretty sure that I know what I need and don't need. I was putting my personal viewpoint out there. I thought that's what this thread was asking for.

I respect your opinion and viewpoint, so if I said anything in that last post that sounded bad, it was not intentional and I apologize. I was responding to a comment dirrected at me by another member and was trying make a point about the difference between objective, imperical knowledge vs. subjective belief. I was definately not trying to say anything derogatory about people's faith or belief.

Regards, Canis

Edited by Caniswalensis, 27 August 2009 - 05:34 AM.

[MoonChild]

Quote

I am pretty sure that I know what I need and don't need.

Perhaps you might, but that doesn't serve the cause.

Quote

I was putting my personal viewpoint out there. I thought that's what this thread was asking for.

Well, that is what we all are doing in the first place. I too. And no that is not my belief that is a fact subjectively and objectively.



Carlotta, to talk about Bible and any other such religious scriptures, the stories are metaphoric, they are merely representation of a deeper knowledge, which ironically the select few twists and poke it down peoples throat for their personal gain.

[Caniswalensis]

MoonChild, on Aug 27 2009, 06:14 AM, said:

Quote

I am pretty sure that I know what I need and don't need.

Perhaps you might, but that doesn't serve the cause.

Quote

I was putting my personal viewpoint out there. I thought that's what this thread was asking for.

Well, that is what we all are doing in the first place. I too. And no that is not my belief that is a fact subjectively and objectively.

OK, it seemed as though you were trying to tell me what I need. Thanks for straightening that out.

[MoonChild]

Caniswalensis, on Aug 27 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

OK, it seemed as though you were trying to tell me what I need. Thanks for straightening that out.

Communication breakdown Thanks for understanding.

[greg_dragonlvr]

I do wonder how many souls have been sent searching due to the fubar attitudes and teachings of the western religions? Any religion based on guilt calling itself Love is bound to confuse and anger a seeker.
I do profess faith in a Creator but that is due in part to some enlightened folks showing me the truth behind the bs. That is just me.

[leslie_dragonlvr]

I found that seeking answers was to be within myself and the world around me.
I found that same thing with religions, that guilt they set in us. I have seen first hand what that can do to a child. My stepson has issues from people like that. He is afraid the devil is going to get him and has been messed up ever since. Long story. But it has taken me a long time to help him find some peace inside himself to cope these days.

But it si still to each person to find their own way and what they choose is for their own journey in life. The answers will come to them eventually.

Les

[greg_dragonlvr]

Mea Culpa...
I still can't get around what god is not there. The Judao/Christian/Islamic version is just one faith path. Animist like Shintoism get along very well without a set heirarchy. Buddhists are just fine not paying tithes to anybody and Taoists and Hindus complete the stage from nobody there to a cast of hundreds.

The rejection of that old fart on a throne cannot be construed as a disbelief of any form of higher structure or purpose.

Input required...

Greg

[stevenedel]

greg_dragonlvr, on Aug 31 2009, 07:44 PM, said:

Mea Culpa...
I still can't get around what god is not there. The Judao/Christian/Islamic version is just one faith path. Animist like Shintoism get along very well without a set heirarchy. Buddhists are just fine not paying tithes to anybody and Taoists and Hindus complete the stage from nobody there to a cast of hundreds.

The rejection of that old fart on a throne cannot be construed as a disbelief of any form of higher structure or purpose.

Input required...

Greg

Well said, Greg. I for one always wondered why the definition of the term 'spiritual' is so often narrowed down to nurturing a belief in gods or an independent 'soul' that lives on after death. I think of spiritual experiences as all experiences that lift us out of the trivial, everyday routine and give a sense of purpose or meaning to life. I don't believe in a god, a life after death or in anything supernatural simply because I lack both objective and subjective reasons to do so. Yet when I listen to, say, Beethovens late string quartets I am moved into a sphere of experiences that at times border on the uncanny, the numinous, experiences which indeed others might call religious. This being in touch with the mind of a genius who knew how to express certain deep and complex aspects of the human condition is to me definitely spiritual, but doesn't involve anything supernatural at all. It is, of course, entirely subjective too, as I think all spiritual experiences must be due to their personal nature - I am quite aware that there are many, many people who are only be mildly interested in, if not simply bored to death by Beethoven's late quartets... Well, that's their loss.

[aprilmoonflower]

I am atheist. I do fully believe in energy though. I think when passing the soul does die but sometimes the energy gets stuck. Beyond that I have no answers. I often wonder if there is not some explanation for "ghosts" like just a dimension,etc.

Just my simplistic view!

[greg_dragonlvr]

Wonder why it took til this last couple of hundred years for athiesm to develop. It took quite a leap of faith in the first place to come up with the concept of the soul or spirit, and I can't really think of any faith path up til now that does not have some form of life after the death of the physical body.

[greg_dragonlvr]

sorry. must have double pumped...

But since I'm here, another question...
Would this belief in your death after death be firm enough to survive the kinds of disaster and trauma that according to urban myth, makes believers in the afterlife of us all?

Edited by greg_dragonlvr, 06 October 2009 - 04:39 PM.

[carlotta]

greg_dragonlvr, on Oct 6 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

Wonder why it took til this last couple of hundred years for athiesm to develop.

I don't think it suddenly developed. I'm sure it's as old a belief as that in a god, but in some religious societies it was, and still is, a dangerous thing to say out loud. In some cultures you risk death expressing it, and at the least exclusion and/or ridicule.

Carlotta