37 replies to this topic

[Rockhauler2k1]

I read a Crowley deck and have studied his works . The best way to understand Alister Crowley is to read the book The Order Of The Golden Dawn.

Most people that read Tarot read a Waite Deck and use a Celtic Cross spread or a three card spread based on my experience. While I am certain that there are exceptions , I use the Golden Dawn spread as do most readers of the Crowley Deck.


It is my contention that Mr Crowley while he admittedly refered to himself as evil , was a genius and had an understanding of devination that was decades before its time. It is also my contention that he was crazy like a fox. His intelligence and understanding of majik drove him to ecentric behavior that was quite socially unacceptable for the time period.

If Mr Crowley were around today , he would he the weird guy on the bus in the afternoon , not an evil madman.


Thats my 2 cents,

Rockhauler2k1

P.S. Iam willing to discuss specific details about Crowley and his life , but being general about his life is like looking at his life through a dirty piece of glass..It does him no justice. The whole story is necessary in his case.

[Vampchick21]

I'll have to go back and refresh my memory on the full details of Aleister Crowley and his life and works. I do agree that he was crazy like a fox, and incredibly intelligent to boot.

He also had some far reaching effects on the people in his life. Didn't one of his wives end up going mad? I'll have to look into that, but for some reason that's in my memory.....

[Rockhauler2k1]

Here is a pretty good link about Crowley and his life . Its basic but it tells the tale .


Alister Crowley

I'll get back to you Vamp about your question

Rockhauler2k1

[Willow]

I believe his first wife Rose is the one you're speaking of Vamp and I remember reading he had drove writer/lover, Victor Neuberg to the brink also...does anyone have any information on his children? The link that Rock provided stated that he attempted to have them but couldnt, instead fictionalizing them in his "Moonchild" book but i've read in acouple books of him having a few

[DukeofBoogie]

I always thought he was interesting. Him and Anton Lavey. I think they both were (at least partialy) showmen. Meaning they both had alot to do with thier own hype. Actually I've heard Lavey was a former Carny.

What's most fascinating to me is that they both succeded, even years after their Deaths (especially Crowley) in making themselve legends. They are immortal. But without Crowley, there would be no Anton Lavey.

Edited by DukeofBoogie, 13 November 2005 - 07:22 AM.

[kats_god]

Very true Duke....I don't think I know anything of Anton Lavey, maybe we should start a tread about him.

[jenbrown]

cheercoach05, on Nov 11 2005, 07:15 AM, said:

I saw a tv show about this guy not too long ago. I can't remember what the show was, but some journalist was investigating this. He was roaming around the area where Crowley was from, and came across this couple who were Crowley followers, or worshipers. They were willing to speak on camera about it, and they even showed the journalist a video they made of themselves performing some sort of ritual at the place where Crowley used to "worship". They told the journalist where the place was, since it was a secret to most people. He went there, and if I recall correctly, he found the guy who owns the land or something, and he showed the journalist the building. It was a small "house", that had been all boarded up. But, it had been broken into repeatedly by Crowley followers, including the earlier couple. The guy let the journalist look around inside, and it was all a MESS from the years of neglect. But all over the place there was evidence that people had been performing different rituals there; wine bottles, candles, symbols on the walls. It was quite an interesting show! But he was defintely portrayed as an evil, satanic man! I had never heard of him before, or since, so it's interesting to see what other information people are putting on here about him! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This was an episode of Scariest Places on Earth so of course they're going to exaggerate the "evil" aspect of Crowley. I honestly doubt that house was even his.

[boris]

petunia4998, on Nov 11 2005, 03:51 PM, said:

You know. people are so pathetic.  The minute someone is secretive, it's immediately thought that they have something to hide and everyone wants to know what it is.

When someone achieves fame, fortune and celebrity, it's because they've sold their soul to the devil.  Not because they have worked hard for it or because they have earned the right to have these things.

Whenever someone deviates from the norm, they are immediately branded "satanic" and "evil" when all they are is different.  People cannot stand the fact that someone might know more than they do or that they can enjoy different things.

Boris, I'm glad to meet a Zeppeliner.  I am in awe of Jimmy Page.  What that man can do with a guitar, well, I can see how some people think he might have Satanic help.  He's amazing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool! Jimmy Page and Pete Townsend both were huge influences on why I picked up the guitar in 1970 and have been playing ever since. I love working with pages guitar voicings, riffs, and leads. Studying his style of playing has been an obsession of mine. Basically, I play mostly my own compositions, but these guys have been a huge influence. It has taken me thirty years to achieve an electric guitar sound and body of musical material of my own. I know from first-hand experience these guys worked for it. There was no instant success or soul selling to the devil. Like Crowley, who I agree was misunderstood, Page seemed to deal with the rumour mill of satanic accusations by simply letting people think what they wanted while he continued to put on a show. The tragedies that plagued the band affect people of all walks of life at one time or another, and sometimes come in waves. These things are a part of life and have nothing to do with being cursed. Being an admirer of Pages talent, I was also drawn to his influences. Page and Crowley also have/had human flaws. Don't we all. I agree with the words of another famous person who was crucified for challenging the conventions of his day, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

[boris]

Vampchick21, on Nov 11 2005, 09:38 AM, said:

Crowley eventually started billing himself as the most evil man in the world.  And, for the record, the Order of the Golden Dawn is NOT a cult, but rather an occult society that focused on the Western Estoric.  Much ritual that can be found today in terms of modern occult practices can find it's roots in the Golden Dawn, and they are very much active today.  Some of the greatest names of the late 19th century were members of the Golden Dawn.  It's very easy to find information about the Order, not particularly secretive.

Crowley had a very large ego, was a drug addict, but a brilliant mind.  A lot of stuff that is still whispered about him was actually started by him.  He had a falling out with the Golden Dawn during a period of leadership struggles, in addition to his growing drug problem, and he left the Order to do his own thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point. I think we may be dealing with semantics when it comes to use of terms like "cult" and "occult". If one defines a "cult" as a mystical or religious order that is outside the perview of mainstream religions, then the Order of the Golden Dawn would definitely qualify, as would any "occult" organization. The term "cult" does carry negative connotations with many people only because their particular religion discourages association with outside belief systems. A friend of mine once told me that the difference between a religion and a cult is that one allows for more tax deductions.

[whiskeysuicide]

he is mentioned a lot in the book "necronomicron" i haven't read it in a while, but he had seomthing to do with the book, he read it or found it , but he was affected greatly by it, i guess. i'll get back to ya, if i have more in it.

[kats_god]

whiskeysuicide, on Nov 30 2005, 11:07 PM, said:

he is mentioned a lot in the book "necronomicron" i haven't read it in a while, but he had  seomthing to do with the book, he read it or found it , but he was affected greatly by it, i guess. i'll get back to ya, if i have more in it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting...keep us posted if you find anything else about that.

[Bobnoxious]

First off, let me say that I'm sure Rock knows way more about Crowley than I do. Just wanted to mention a few things that haven't been mentioned yet. Crowley did indeed create a myth around himself about being "the beast" and "the wickedest man alive" to generate publicity (and money), but he's way more complex than that. A lot of what he did was to strip magic (or magick, as he preferred) of it's mumbo jumbo and just put out the techniques required to do certain things. One of his sayings was, "if you do certain things, certain things happen."

In many ways, he approached the paranormal from a very scientific standpoint, and warned against attributing too much reality to anything one encountered while on the "astral plane". While there are other ways to interpret his writings, I see a lot of what he did as more psychology than anything mystical. If I'm not mistaken, the motto of the journal he published was "the method of science, the aim of religion".

Crowley's most famous saying, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", is usually misinterpreted as meaning "do whatever the heck you want." For Crowley, the word "will" meant something more akin to fate or destiny. So what he was saying was more like "do what it is you were meant to do."

Aside from the mountain climbing adventures and occult activities already mentioned, Crowely was also involved with either the British secret service, the German secret service, or both during WWII, depending on what you believe. Truly a fascinating character the likes of which we really don't see any more.

I'd recommend 'The Legacy of the Beast' by Gerald Suster as a good entry point for anyone wanting to know more. It's a pretty good bio on the man that isn't too long, but still has most of the pertinent details. Robert Anton Wilson has also written quite a bit about Crowley, notably in his nonfiction 'Cosmic Trigger' series, and in his ficitonal 'Masks of the Illuminatti' in which Crowley is a main character.

As for Anton Lavey, yes he was a carnival barker at one point in his life. His 'Satanic Bible' is more or less a mix of Crowley, Nietsche (probably mispelled, sorry), and showmanship. It's also an interesting read, and I highly recommend it for anyone who thinks they know what "Satanism" is about.

[Yosei]

This may be a rather frivolous tangent, but I find I often drive past a little office as I'm driving around town, which has a small sign on a black wrought iron post reading "Crowley Insurance Agency". It wouldn't be quite so funny if it weren't for the fact that it is about two doors up from a little metaphysical shop, which displays flyers advertising for the local chapter of the OTO in its window...
I keep wanting to walk in an ask if they insure against Demonic Possession and acts of Dog...

[spooksareus]

Now that is funny....

[martyg]

Hello all,

Bobnoxious, on Dec 1 2005, 04:17 AM, said:

Crowley's most famous saying, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", is usually misinterpreted as meaning "do whatever the heck you want." For Crowley, the word "will" meant something more akin to fate or destiny. So what he was saying was more like "do what it is you were meant to do."

Actually its a bit more involved than that. "Will" actually refers to the "higher self", not fate or destiny. One of the principles in the golden dawn (and in various western esoteric practices) is that there is a higher self or "guardian angel" that you are connected to, and that's where this quote stems from. Without going in to too much detail, the goal in some of the rituals performed is to unite your self with your "higher self" elevating your "consciousness" (since your connection to this other "plane" is considered through subconsciousness - and yes, I know much of modern psychology no longer believes in a subconscious) and ultimately traveling further along the "tree of life", a qabalistic concept. Many of the rituals and practices are designed to create certain psychological states because of this. This is also why there is a big crossover between much of this type of occult practice and psychoanlysis. In fact, some of the biggest names in psychology (Freud, Jung) were actually involved in western esoteric practices as well.

Quote

As for Anton Lavey, yes he was a carnival barker at one point in his life. His 'Satanic Bible' is more or less a mix of Crowley, Nietsche (probably mispelled, sorry), and showmanship. It's also an interesting read, and I highly recommend it for anyone who thinks they know what "Satanism" is about.

Satanism is interesting, especially when people try use it for Crowley and promote him as being a "devil worshiper". Qaballah and ultimately Golden Dawn practice do not believe in such a thing, so such claims against him seem really foolish. Sure, there are "demons" and other negative entities, but the view is that they are all part of the whole - both good and bad are both creations of the "great spirit". Neither could exist without the other. In fact Satan is actually a hebrew word, which describes the opposing force created by "the great spirit" to test creation. Without that opposing force, there would be no free will - there would be nothing to choose against. Hence for example, the Devil card in the tarot actually is a symbol representing self-control and restraint in decision and action. Not to act on pure emotion (animal instinct, the lower self).

The idea of a "devil" is a creation of later Catholic Christians (the concept didn't exist in the early days of Christianity) as a morphing/reinterpetation/warping of Qaballistic and Gnostic practices. Interesitngly, "hell" also stems from a reworking of Gnostic and Qaballistic practices. It comes from the greek concept of Gehenna, which traces to the hebrew Gai-Ben-Hinnom - a garbage pit of sorts that existed outside Jerusalem where cremation of "undesireables" and burning of garbage in general was done.

jenbrown, on Nov 13 2005, 08:56 PM, said:

This was an episode of Scariest Places on Earth so of course they're going to exaggerate the "evil" aspect of Crowley. I honestly doubt that house was even his.

There was another show like that where they were investigating haunting problems at a location in England - it was a bed and breakfast that had a bed in one of the rooms that puportedly belonged to Crowley and was "causing problems" for the guests. They built up the segment with all this satanist garbage. Really laughable.