14 replies to this topic

[AG841]

Whenever I hear about families that live in a haunted house and are happy with the ghost it kind of bothers me- mainly because I think being earth bound is not the natural state of affairs for a spirit. I find the idea of spirits stuck on this plane rather sad (for the spirits). And when I hear people talk about their ghost like it's some sort of mascot- it just seems so wrong to me. Now this topic makes a number of assumptions and I realize a lot of folks won't agree with those assumptions. But if you believe there are such things as earth bound spirits, spirits who for whatever reason did not pass on, go into the light, whatever...spirits that remain on this earthly plane either out of fear or confusion or....
Should folks who are sensitive to these things make an effort to encourage the spirits to move on? Isn't that the moral thing to do? And do you think it might be possible to force a spirit to move on, whether they want to go or not (of this I am doubtful but would like to know what others think)? In hauntings shouldn't the default be to help and encourage the spirit to progress and move on rather than to try and make an accomodation with it? Personally I think even spirits that were terrible people, while they might initially have a tough time of it in the afterlife, it is necessary that they move on so that they can eventually atone for the things they've done and progress spiritually- but that is based on my own thoughts concerning the nature of the afterlife.

[Yosei]

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but personally I don't think that it's morally right to push spirits to move on at all unless they are clearly unhappy or otherwise causing a problem. While we would like to think there is a perfect heaven somewhere, we do not KNOW that whatever else awaits them is good, bad, or indifferent( always remember, too, that what makes one person happy may make another miserable), and I see no reason why meddling in another person's afterlife is less offensive than meddling in their personal life. If they WANT to move on and ask for your help and advice, that's another matter.

[Tantric Kitten]

I believe that ghosts are trapped between this plane and a fulfilled afterlife... so I strongly believe that ghosts should move on.

That said, I also believe that they don't really have much of a sense of passage of time so if it's a week or 500 years before they're brought Home, there's not much difference.

I do not believe one should force a ghost out unless there is absolutely no other recourse left (the homeowners are freaked out AND they can't move AND the ghost is violent AND attempts at convincing the ghost to move on don't work... yada yada).

I feel that with the work I participate in helping ghosts cross is part of the big picture plan. I feel that I am brought to where a little nudge from this side is needed when everything's in place over there to welcome someone home.

So... do I think it's a moral obligation to try to help someone cross? Yes. Do I understand people who are hesitant or don't believe that? Yes. Do I judge the people who believe differently than me on the subject? No, not really anymore (unless they haven't thought it out and are in it just for the thrill).

Oh... and ghosts as mascots or prizes is something completely else... THAT I find as reprehensible as if the person had a slave chained up in their basement. These are people, folks! They might not have bodies but they're just as human as we are!

Edited by Tantric Kitten, 05 February 2008 - 12:20 PM.

[Mark London]

I have to agree and it certainly depends on the spirit.

And by the by not all spirits are earthbound. There can be spirits that have already passed over and are simply in visitation and are happy to dwell among us or properties.

But those that are stuck are not sure if they need help in the first place, as they are definately dazed and confused and really dont know what to do or how to move on.

Yes alot of it is guilt and self-denial that they have died, but also there is a dread that they do not know where they are going or what to expect.

Those of you who have read my 9/11 post will see that alot of these guys were confused and certainly somewhat angry that they have had their lives taken from them. The people I have helped all had a common theme among them in that they did not know that if they crossed over that could come back in visitation and spend as much time as they wanted with their loved ones. They thought that if they did move on that was it, they would never see them again. This is very hard to convince these people because obviously they do not trust or believe in what you are telling them.

Mark

[AG841]

Thanks for the replies and I've got to check out your 9/11 post Mark!

[Kira]

What a great question! I'm putting my thinking cap on for this one.

Suppose in life you are a person who believes that when you die, that's it, it's over, no heaven or afterlife. So then you die and you find that you are still around your loved ones. In a sense you may feel comforted because you still get to see them on a daily basis. But eventually they all die and most go directly to the light, then you are lost and alone and scared. A new family moves into the house and you feel comforted again because there are living people. They are not your family, but you are not alone any longer. Your belief system still hasn't changed and you think dead is dead. What do you do with the ghost in that case?

You can try talking to him/her and tell them there is a better place to be. But if that person is not willing or able to believe that, the ghost is going to stay because for him/her, it is more comfortable to deal with the known than the unknown. I liken it to being told I had to sell my house and move to a place I'd only heard of but wasn't really sure what it was like. I think I would try to do whatever I possibly could to stay home out of fear of the unknown, even if everything fell apart around me. If I am an adventurous person then I would probably move and take the risk, but if the person in life was fearful of change, that is not going to change in death. I imagine souls that don't cross over may be very new souls, therefore they don't have the "soul memory" of those who cross over immediately.

I don't know, I could be completely wrong. Who knows? We really don't know how one's beliefs while alive on the earth plane translate after death of the physical body. Plus all the other factors of religion and what they believe about sin, etc.

So to sum up. I have a few resident spirits here. One is an old man who seems quite content, but a bit grumpy, who lives in my basement. When I'm down there I talk to him and tell him hello, and that he should go into the light. It's been 11 years and he's still here. I can't force him to go, so we co-exist. I can only hope that one day he will miraculously realize that he can leave, but until then I respect his need to stay. The others come and go. However I've recently begun to think they are not ghosts at all, but my guide, protectors and angels and I've just been confused and thought they were ghosts.

Hope that helps you sort things out a bit.
Kira

[little turtle]

I feel entities sometimes cannot be forced to move on, but if they are causing problems they should be encourged, but I believe you cannot really force someone along. I do believe in calling someone else for help -guidesand/or other spirits to lead someone home. Why be stuck here or stick around when there is a better place they can be?

[Redhead]

I grew up in a 'haunted house'. It wasn't scary. It wasn't violent. It was normal for me. We never called him 'our ghost' but instead called him by the name I gave him as a child. I loved him and he was my friend - he looked out for me and on one occasion left me a small aport as a gift. (There was even an occasion when I think something negative did try to come in and I believe that he protected us, but that is for another topic)I wouldn't say he was ever thought of as a 'mascot', but rather he was simply there the way we all were. It never would have occured to me to try to send him on as it seemed as though this was where he wanted to be. The point I'm trying to make is that real life and Hollywood are not the same thing. Not all 'hauntings' are negative or scary. Sometimes they just "are" and become a part of one's life. So I'm of the opinion that unless it's a bad situation, leave the spirit/ghost alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

[Oniix]

No, I don't think there is any sort of moral "right" or any sort of obligation to send the into the light. Interestingly enough, my viewpoint on that has changed over the past few years.

Leave them be unless they are being a pain in the arse, or they tell you they want help.

[Cynthia_TN]

Mark London, on Feb 5 2008, 03:37 PM, said:

I have to agree and it certainly depends on the spirit.

And by the by not all spirits are earthbound. There can be spirits that have already passed over and are simply in visitation and are happy to dwell among us or properties.

But those that are stuck are not sure if they need help in the first place, as they are definately dazed and confused and really dont know what to do or how to move on.

Yes alot of it is guilt and self-denial that they have died, but also there is a dread that they do not know where they are going or what to expect.

Those of you who have read my 9/11 post will see that alot of these guys were confused and certainly somewhat angry that they have had their lives taken from them. The people I have helped all had a common theme among them in that they did not know that if they crossed over that could come back in visitation and spend as much time as they wanted with their loved ones. They thought that if they did move on that was it, they would never see them again. This is very hard to convince these people because obviously they do not trust or believe in what you are telling them.

Mark

Well said!

[Moonstruck]

I have been thinking about this subject a lot since Mark's 9-11 posts.

I have recently found out that I have a spirit possible two in my house. One spirit is that of a little girl around 10 years old. I don't feel the urge to send her to the light until I find out more about her and her circumstances. I may tell her about the light and if she decided to go than that would be just that, her decision. I just wonder if she is too young to know better. It must be so frightening to be a child spirit.

On the subject, I am on the fence. I guess it depends on the situation. I don't like people keeping spirits around for thier own amusement. They should give the spirit the option and the knowledge to leave if they want.

I am also confused about how to tell if they are trapped here or it they are spirit guides. How can you tell? Kira brought that up and it was another thing I was wondering about.

Another question....for those that are trapped here not knowing what is happening to them, where are thier spirit guides??????

[Mark London]

Moonstruck, on Feb 12 2008, 06:32 PM, said:

I have been thinking about this subject a lot since Mark's 9-11 posts.

I have recently found out that I have a spirit possible two in my house. One spirit is that of a little girl around 10 years old. I don't feel the urge to send her to the light until I find out more about her and her circumstances. I may tell her about the light and if she decided to go than that would be just that, her decision. I just wonder if she is too young to know better. It must be so frightening to be a child spirit.

On the subject, I am on the fence. I guess it depends on the situation. I don't like people keeping spirits around for thier own amusement. They should give the spirit the option and the knowledge to leave if they want.

I am also confused about how to tell if they are trapped here or it they are spirit guides. How can you tell? Kira brought that up and it was another thing I was wondering about.

Another question....for those that are trapped here not knowing what is happening to them, where are thier spirit guides??????

Hi Moonstruck

Some good questions there !

It is quite difficult to tell if someone is trapped or not, but the learned medium etc would be able to tell quite quickly. Alot of the tell tale signs start with thw repetitive syndromes that occur for spirits, simple mundane things are repeated over and over again just like some sort of time loop. Also a more obvious sign is that they may actually ask for help, which does happen from time to time.

The answer to your toher question is that believe me a lot of the time their spirit guides are there, but they cannot force spirit to move on, there isnt any magical formulae. Thats excatly what happened with me and my 9/11 experiences.

Hope that helps

Mark

[Virgo/Libra Cusp]

I've never heard about spirit guides until joining this group. As a kid I used to say out loud to God and spirits as well to not show themselves to me because I couldn't handle it. Now that I'm older I want to know... always wonder if I kind of blew it by doing that.

Anyway.. to the point.. I think we should leave well enough alone. Offer help and hope, let them know everything's ok.. and see where it goes. But the choice should be theirs..

[SpiderMeema]

AG841, on Feb 5 2008, 09:31 AM, said:

Whenever I hear about families that live in a haunted house and are happy with the ghost it kind of bothers me- mainly because I think being earth bound is not the natural state of affairs for a spirit. I find the idea of spirits stuck on this plane rather sad (for the spirits). And when I hear people talk about their ghost like it's some sort of mascot- it just seems so wrong to me. Now this topic makes a number of assumptions and I realize a lot of folks won't agree with those assumptions. But if you believe there are such things as earth bound spirits, spirits who for whatever reason did not pass on, go into the light, whatever...spirits that remain on this earthly plane either out of fear or confusion or....
Should folks who are sensitive to these things make an effort to encourage the spirits to move on? Isn't that the moral thing to do? And do you think it might be possible to force a spirit to move on, whether they want to go or not (of this I am doubtful but would like to know what others think)? In hauntings shouldn't the default be to help and encourage the spirit to progress and move on rather than to try and make an accomodation with it? Personally I think even spirits that were terrible people, while they might initially have a tough time of it in the afterlife, it is necessary that they move on so that they can eventually atone for the things they've done and progress spiritually- but that is based on my own thoughts concerning the nature of the afterlife.

Excellent question. It is one that many of us that do 'spirit work' have asked ourselves many times. While I have done exttensive EVP work, the common thread I have found, is that, yes, some do want help. Figuring out what type of help they need is another matter. Those who have passed on and went into the light already, and have come back to visit may be there strictly for the familiarity and comfort of a place they once resided at. Those who have found themselves 'locked out', are the ones who need careful guidance in moving on. Religious beliefs, low self esteem, guilt, may play a large part as to why the are so afraid to go to the light. And here we are, for the most part, acting as if we are the complete authority as to what they need to do to redeem themselves. By assuming that the old standard of "just go into the light", may in essence, in their minds, be sending them onto another death' sentence of sorts.
For me, the use of EVP to gather information about the wants and needs of these spirits, is a very useful tool. Being able to ask specific questions about a spirits status can help one devise a favorable outcome for that spirit. But not everyone is able to employ this facet of evidence and inquiry. Each spirit is an individual, and has to be treated thus. There is no blanket method of accerlation into the "great beyond". And yes, I do feel we have a moral obligation to help these people, that is, if that is truly what they want. I have from experience found that the majority made a concious decision to be where they are at. It is when I come accross one that is totally confused, and their primary focus is getting "help", that is when further investigation is warranted. I think the first thing that needs to be established is that no matter the circumstance, that reassuring them that they are welcome to be here, is extremely important. Imagine not being able to sit and rest, and being able to plan and think of what your next move should be. It is almost like the life of a homeless person, not knowing where they will be laying their head that night. If they can feel welcomed and not pressured into making a snap decision about what to do next, they will be able to think all the options through, and come to a decision that is right for them. For us who for what ever reason, are a beacon for them to follow, must be willing to be empathetic towards them, and provide them what ever help they possibly can. On the other hand, it hard to be able to tell what help you give them was truly sufficient, sometimes it seems it would be better not to help, if it is the wrong type of help. For those of us who are sensitive to these people, it takes the entire community to sometimes provide the proper help. By net working with each other, we are able to come to an agreed upon method, a method in which it can be improvised upon, case by case. With the use of EVP, for me, I am able to ask about the status of a particular individual, and I know not everyone is able to have it this way. For the most part, just the simple acknowledgement of a spirit is a step in the right direction, by what ever means. The bottom line is this, the spirit is the one who makes the ultimate decision, but if we can provide a nurturing environment, it may make the decision process a whole lot easier.
One day we all will be faced with this, having to make a decision at the moment of passing, where to go and what to do next. The best laid plans can change, depending on the situation. One of the draw backs of being privy to the 'life' of spirits after passing, is our own mortality coming into question. Will we practice what we preach? !Will there be someone like us to guide us through? Will the veil have been lifted far enough for all to see? I can only hope that there will be help for us all, whether we need it or not.

[brass city paranormal]

I have to say, I agree with Kira and Mark on many points.
I don't feel it's an obligation to "have to" but if the spirit is overtly malevolent, I feel it would be appropriate to encourage it move elsewhere. The tormented are another matter, if you are truely seeking to communicate, I feel it would only be appropriate to follow-up with your own inquiry.
a.k.a. Don't ask if you don't want to know.


But to say there's a "light" for them to go to is a basis of the belief system of the writer...
Maybe there is no other afterlife? Maybe there really are no ghosts and we're all nuts? Does your afterlife really hinge on what your beliefs in life were? The truth is we just don't know...