71 replies to this topic

[BringOnTheGhosts]

Welcome to the Village! I mean this with all respect when I say you may need to take it down a notch. I understand your a strong skeptic, and I fully understand. I think it's hard to believe unless you've had an experience yourself, and putting yourself in a "psychic's" shoes is nearly impossible. The fact that you came right out and said "All Paranormal Phenomena Is A Hoax" was not only your opinion but untrue. No, I am not making a statement ghosts are real. But not everything paranormal has to do with the dead or gifted powers in a person. You may one day get the evidence that will change your mind, so I wouldn't make that statement just yet. It's hard to be a believer when you don't know the facts. My only suggestion (because I am neither a psychic nor medium nor any other sensitive person) is to do your research and dig in a little further to the real meaning of "paranormal," it's not all spooks and haunts you know

-Maili

[Catie]

Just wondering what 'Psychic' Means to you? Call me crazy, but just because I can sense emotions from other people, have dreams that come true occasionally, or know what is going to happen, does not mean that I am anything you claim a psychic to be. Further, why in the world would I waste my time attempting to prove to you that what I see, hear, predict, or feel is real? Communicating with any sort of spirit takes so much energy that I am drained for days afterwords. And I have always felt that what is important to be known must present itself to me. I don't go looking for it. I don't seek to take advantage of anyone. I don't want to give anyone false hopes. Having any ability like this is so complicated. I can't explain what its like to have a dream of something horrible happening, of death, of death close to me, and then having my dad get cancer two months later and barely live for four before he died, and knowing that I knew before it happened. Of dreaming a car accident and then having it happen, or anything akin to that. Obviously you're not in the practice of being understanding, so let me set a little "scientific method" experiment up for you...just from my personal experience.

If a room is sealed from all outside elements, and you are sleeping, there should be nothing going on in that room. If there are four rolls of toilet paper stacked on the top of the toilet, whose rim angles down towards the wall, it is probable that the toilet paper will stay in place, since the room is locked off, there is no one inside of it, and no earthquakes or damage occurred during the time you are sleeping.
If you wake up in the morning, open the door to the bathroom, and see that the toilet paper has been completely unrolled all over the bathroom, and not as if it just fell from the top of the toilet, what is the explanation for that? If I was the only one in the house, and slept for four hours, did not get up to use the bathroom, or do anything else, how is that even possible?

So in conclusion, the toilet paper moved without my assistance, or anyone elses. How did it move? There was no earthquake, no wind, not anything that could have made it move.

Im not saying it was a spirit, but it is certainly something that cannot be explained.

Another example:

If your friend claims to be a sensitive, and has never seen a photo of your recently deceased father, or met him at all, are you supposed to believe her? When he is angry, she is angry. If she says he wants to talk, do you let her talk to him and relay the messages to you? Do you take that chance? If you ask her questions to ask him, and she answers them honestly, or from the point of your dead father, and they are so spot on that it is scary, using phrases he would use, nicknames, and words. Things you never told her...how do you explain that?

Im just pointing out here that there are things that science cannot explain, even when you look at them deeply.

[OMPRDave]

Actually, there could be a lot going on in a sealed room. Electrical fields are creating electromagnetic radiation. The room, being closed off, could be amplifying infra-sound to a degree that it's causing a physical reaction in anyone in that area (it's proven that infra-sound can cause feelings of anxiety, disorientation, physical symptoms such as nausea and dizziness, and also affect our vision and auditory senses. A simple room fan can create a standing wave of infra-sound of this nature). Not to mention the person in that space could react psychologically and literally imagine any degree of phenomena. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but every natural explanation has to be considered first.

The toilet paper...was the entire roll unwound or just a piece of it (say, enough to unspool if it rolled across the room)? A vibration in the plumbing could have caused it to fall, and if you were asleep you would have been entirely unaware of it. A good skeptical researcher will monitor that area to see if there is indeed any reason for the plumbing to vibrate and try and recreate it. Again, look for the natural before assuming the unnatural.

Many skeptics will dismiss psychic abilities as well. I do not - however I don't believe that they can offer me much in the way of trying to explain a possible haunting. As with ghosts, I'll fully believe in their existence when and if there comes a full explanation through repeated scientific testing. If and when psychic or sensitive abilities are finally recognized and explained I will definitely look deeper into utilizing them more in my research, but for now I research psychics and sensitives the same way I do hauntings.

But one thing I DON'T try to do (which I have in the past and have learned would be very astute of me) is to try and change somebody's beliefs. As a skeptic, it's really only my own questions that need to be answered and my own beliefs on the line.

Edited by OMPRDave, 25 January 2010 - 06:57 PM.

[stevenedel]

Markway, on Dec 18 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

This stuff goes on all of the time, but it doesn't perform upon demand. If I had to prove lightning by setting up a camera where I thought that it was going to hit, how well would I do?

Yet we have ample evidence of lightning and a pretty good understanding of it's workings. But of course, the 'stuff' doesn't occur randomly, at least, not going by what I read on this board. There are haunted locations, and people claiming to have paranormal abilities; there are EVPs and ghost photographs and what not - all things that can be easily and rigourously tested. I've posted several suggestions elsewhere on this board about possible ways to do that. Take a substantial people to ten different places, one of which is suppposedly haunted. Don't tell them which one, let them tell you. Are these people all pointing to the same house? Do they independently describe similar experiences? That would be interesting (if still not proof of a haunting).

Markway, on Dec 18 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

Ghosts are one of the most well documented of all phenomena. The history goes back thousands of years. Psychic phenomenae are equally as ubiquitous, but most folks are quick to explain them away.

Here we go again. Don't just say it, show it. This claim is made with startling ease and regularity by believers, but the documentation I found never extended beyond anecdote, and inconclusive images and sound recordings presented with an awful lot of interpretation attached. The very few serious tests, in the area of ESP for instance, that I've been able to dig up didn't yield any evidence for the existence of ESP capabilities.

Don't forget that folklore is not evidence; folklore is full of dragons, witches and leprechauns - do they exist as well?

[MoonChild]

stevenedel, on Mar 23 2010, 09:53 PM, said:

Here we go again. Don't just say it, show it. This claim is made with startling ease and regularity by believers, but the documentation I found never extended beyond anecdote, and inconclusive images and sound recordings presented with an awful lot of interpretation attached. The very few serious tests, in the area of ESP for instance, that I've been able to dig up didn't yield any evidence for the existence of ESP capabilities.

Merely refusing to acknowledge doesn't prove the inexistence either steven.

[Robot]

stevenedel, on Mar 23 2010, 12:23 PM, said:

Markway, on Dec 18 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

This stuff goes on all of the time, but it doesn't perform upon demand. If I had to prove lightning by setting up a camera where I thought that it was going to hit, how well would I do?

Yet we have ample evidence of lightning and a pretty good understanding of it's workings. But of course, the 'stuff' doesn't occur randomly, at least, not going by what I read on this board. There are haunted locations, and people claiming to have paranormal abilities; there are EVPs and ghost photographs and what not - all things that can be easily and rigourously tested. I've posted several suggestions elsewhere on this board about possible ways to do that. Take a substantial people to ten different places, one of which is suppposedly haunted. Don't tell them which one, let them tell you. Are these people all pointing to the same house? Do they independently describe similar experiences? That would be interesting (if still not proof of a haunting).

Markway, on Dec 18 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

Ghosts are one of the most well documented of all phenomena. The history goes back thousands of years. Psychic phenomenae are equally as ubiquitous, but most folks are quick to explain them away.

Here we go again. Don't just say it, show it. This claim is made with startling ease and regularity by believers, but the documentation I found never extended beyond anecdote, and inconclusive images and sound recordings presented with an awful lot of interpretation attached. The very few serious tests, in the area of ESP for instance, that I've been able to dig up didn't yield any evidence for the existence of ESP capabilities.

Don't forget that folklore is not evidence; folklore is full of dragons, witches and leprechauns - do they exist as well?

I noticed your Carl Sagan quote:

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

Carl didnt believe in much, he didnt believe in God, Ghosts, UFO's and many other things, HOWEVER, he did believe in ESP type mechanisms. He talks about this in his book, "The Demon Haunted World".

Do you believe in the possibility of anything paranormal?

[stevenedel]

Robot, on Mar 24 2010, 01:28 AM, said:

I noticed your Carl Sagan quote:

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

Carl didnt believe in much, he didnt believe in God, Ghosts, UFO's and many other things, HOWEVER, he did believe in ESP type mechanisms. He talks about this in his book, "The Demon Haunted World".

Do you believe in the possibility of anything paranormal?

Interesting question. Is it possible that millions of invisible winged beings soar about in the heavens watching benignly over mankind? Is it possible that a prehistoric monster is swimming in Loch Ness that is very clever at eluding search parties? Is it possible that some houses teem with ghosts, who fall silent when a serious researcher enters because they don't like to be put to the test? Yes, I suppose in a very far-fetched, theoretical way these things are possible. But I fail to see any reason to consider such remote possibilities.

Moreover, many paranormal claims simply fly in the face of the established laws of physics. Here's what Michio Kaku has to say about psychokinesis in his book Physics of the Impossible:

"The problem with studying psychokinesis, even its advocates admit, is that it does not easily conform to the known laws of physics. Gravity, the weakest force in the universe, is only attractive and cannot be used to repel or levitate objects. The electromagnetic force obeys Maxwell's equations and it does not admit the possibility of pushing electrically neutral objects across a room. The nuclear forces work only at short ranges, such as the distance between nuclear particles."

Kaku also reviews the research evidence for psychokinesis and ESP and finds that nothing's there. Interestingly, he muses about possibilities to realize mind-reading or psychokinesis anyway, and suggests some that do not violate the laws of physics. These however all involve the use of machines/computers and have very little to do with ESP or psychokinesis as presented in the paranormal community.

As for the great Carl Sagan, no, he didn't believe in ESP at all. In The Demon Haunted World, a book that everybody on this forum should read, he has two things to say about ESP:

"Under public pressure for results, police with an unsolved murder or a missing body on their hands consult ESP 'experts' (who never guess better than expected by common sense...)"

This line is part of list of examples of cases of "proved or presumptive baloney" and commercial abuse of fake paranormal claims (note the quote marks around 'experts').

And:

"At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images 'projected' at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation. I pick these claims not because I think they are likely to be valid (I don't), but as examples of contentions that might be true. The last three have at least some, although still dubious, experimental support. Of course, I could be wrong."

This final paragraph simply shows Sagan to be an open minded scientist. The evidence there is, is scant and dubious, and not nearly enough to convince him of the validity of these claims, but enough for him to think further study might be warranted.

Moonchild: The point has been made over and over but doesn't seem to stick around these boards: it is impossible to prove inexistence. The burden of proof always rests with the one claiming the existence of something.

Edited by stevenedel, 24 March 2010 - 05:58 AM.

[Robot]

stevenedel, on Mar 24 2010, 06:57 AM, said:

Robot, on Mar 24 2010, 01:28 AM, said:

I noticed your Carl Sagan quote:

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

Carl didnt believe in much, he didnt believe in God, Ghosts, UFO's and many other things, HOWEVER, he did believe in ESP type mechanisms. He talks about this in his book, "The Demon Haunted World".

Do you believe in the possibility of anything paranormal?

Interesting question. Is it possible that millions of invisible winged beings soar about in the heavens watching benignly over mankind? Is it possible that a prehistoric monster is swimming in Loch Ness that is very clever at eluding search parties? Is it possible that some houses teem with ghosts, who fall silent when a serious researcher enters because they don't like to be put to the test? Yes, I suppose in a very far-fetched, theoretical way these things are possible. But I fail to see any reason to consider such remote possibilities.

Moreover, many paranormal claims simply fly in the face of the established laws of physics. Here's what Michio Kaku has to say about psychokinesis in his book Physics of the Impossible:

"The problem with studying psychokinesis, even its advocates admit, is that it does not easily conform to the known laws of physics. Gravity, the weakest force in the universe, is only attractive and cannot be used to repel or levitate objects. The electromagnetic force obeys Maxwell's equations and it does not admit the possibility of pushing electrically neutral objects across a room. The nuclear forces work only at short ranges, such as the distance between nuclear particles."

Kaku also reviews the research evidence for psychokinesis and ESP and finds that nothing's there. Interestingly, he muses about possibilities to realize mind-reading or psychokinesis anyway, and suggests some that do not violate the laws of physics. These however all involve the use of machines/computers and have very little to do with ESP or psychokinesis as presented in the paranormal community.

As for the great Carl Sagan, no, he didn't believe in ESP at all. In The Demon Haunted World, a book that everybody on this forum should read, he has two things to say about ESP:

"Under public pressure for results, police with an unsolved murder or a missing body on their hands consult ESP 'experts' (who never guess better than expected by common sense...)"

This line is part of list of examples of cases of "proved or presumptive baloney" and commercial abuse of fake paranormal claims (note the quote marks around 'experts').

And:

"At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images 'projected' at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation. I pick these claims not because I think they are likely to be valid (I don't), but as examples of contentions that might be true. The last three have at least some, although still dubious, experimental support. Of course, I could be wrong."

This final paragraph simply shows Sagan to be an open minded scientist. The evidence there is, is scant and dubious, and not nearly enough to convince him of the validity of these claims, but enough for him to think further study might be warranted.

Moonchild: The point has been made over and over but doesn't seem to stick around these boards: it is impossible to prove inexistence. The burden of proof always rests with the one claiming the existence of something.

I am not a fan of Kaku, I believe him to be too lamanized and packaged for television ratings. Einstein, Feinman, Gel-mann, are amongst my favorites.

Your reply is appreciated. What is your reason for being on this site? To educate "us" about the "errors" of our ways and beliefs?

May I ask about your formal education?

Edited by Robot, 24 March 2010 - 07:14 AM.

[Robot]

Unfortunately my edit of the above post was cut short, here is some more of what I have to say.

stevenedel,

Perhaps we have similar backgrounds? I am currently email corresponding with one of the most notable skeptics of the paranormal field. I have a chapter in the book I'm writing, the chapter is titled, "Skeptics and Critics".

I enjoy a "thinking" conversation, even with people on the "other" side. Regards, John

[MoonChild]

stevenedel, on Mar 24 2010, 04:27 PM, said:

Moonchild: The point has been made over and over but doesn't seem to stick around these boards: it is impossible to prove inexistence. The burden of proof always rests with the one claiming the existence of something.

Ask and seek, you are failing to do that and keep on keeping the onus on the other side. Unless and until certain changes are made, there is no good - with the approach.

[ohreally?]

MoonChild, on Mar 23 2010, 12:37 PM, said:

stevenedel, on Mar 23 2010, 09:53 PM, said:

Here we go again. Don't just say it, show it. This claim is made with startling ease and regularity by believers, but the documentation I found never extended beyond anecdote, and inconclusive images and sound recordings presented with an awful lot of interpretation attached. The very few serious tests, in the area of ESP for instance, that I've been able to dig up didn't yield any evidence for the existence of ESP capabilities.

Merely refusing to acknowledge doesn't prove the inexistence either steven.

Quite right moonchild, but stevenedel isn't refusing. The fact that there is no reliable evidence anything paranormal is real should lead one to strongly consider that there is nothing paranormal. That line of reasoning stevenedel is using follows the Law of Parsimony.

[wipsi]

Well, why then don't we apply the scientific method??? What you propose is NOT a scientific test of these abilities. Why don't you do it properly and follow the protocol that has been developed by Gary Schwartz - "Anomalous Information Reception by Research Mediums Demonstrated Using a Novel Triple-Blind Protocol" (2007). Explore. Vol 3, No. 1. Pgs.23-27.

Uh-oh...looks like you have found someone who knows something about the field and knows the scientific method....

hippityhoohaa, on Apr 3 2009, 11:23 PM, said:

I can conduct the illusion of psychic abilities, clairvoyance, mediumship etc. From reading a lot of posts on these forums I can see anyone who believes in ghosts has a gross misunderstanding or misapplication of the scientific method. But of course your response will be "ohh no it's you who isn't open minded".

That is why I invite absolutely anyone here, or anywhere else (even if you're just reading this forum and are not registered), who claims to possess any supernatural power (whether you think you're a psychic, can talk to the dead, or do anything else) to add me to Yahoo Messenger on hippityhoohaa@y7mail.com and prove it to me. Tell me things about myself that a stranger couldn't possibly know, and that are statistically unlikely to be random.

Through text, I ask you to demonstrate to me even the slightest thing that I, as a skeptic, would not be able to explain normally. Don't attempt anything vague on me, because I probably know cold reading better than you do. The reason I'm making this post is to show everyone that if you believe in anything supernatural, then you can be almost certain that you're deluded.

If anyone can convince me of any supernatural ability, however slight, I will not only give them $1000USD, but I will also promote them in a way they never imagined. If you fail however, which I know everyone will, then I reserve the right to publish our full conversation here, or anywhere else I choose, for everyone to see.

I'm trying to compile a lists of fakes, or people who genuinely believe they have paranormal abilities but obviously suffer from a mental illness, so that I can put together a book demonstrating to vulnerable minds that there is indeed no such thing as the supernatural.

So go ahead, add me on hippityhoohaa@y7mail.com if you think you're a psychic, medium, or anything else that you think you can prove. Be reminded however that I reserve the right to publish our full conversation anywhere I please. And please don't try any fraudulent techniques or ask me to provide you any detailed information about myself, as I'm probably a better trickster than you are and don't fall for such things. People who play upon the vulnerable with their charlatanism sicken me.

I dare anyone to step up to this challenge. If no one does, then it just goes to show what a hoax any psychics here are when confronted by someone who knows their tricks.