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Disbelievers Vs. The Paranormal


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#16 Markway

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 06:12 PM

:Spaz: Everyone is busy I see.

This is something discussed before, but as that thread became rather long it might not be out of place to mention it again. As an undergrad I attended a lecture given by a man who considered himself a superior being. He did have some pretty valuable points to make though.

Part of his schtick involved the brag that if he could ask anyone in the audience two questions he could predict their views on 20 other topics. He asked for volunteers and selected this poor, overly concerned and intense flower person. You've seen the type in the movies if you weren't there; bell bottom jeans, tie-dyed t-shirt, beard, and hair down to.. well you know where. The lecturer asked him if whaling should be stopped. Then he asked him if marijuanna should be legalized. After he got his answers, the superior human being guessed right on a bout 20 other issues. The poor hippie got all frazzled and said, "But those are just good sense! Any educated person thinks that way! " We all took a written exam, and I was one of three out of about 500 who didn't fit one of TWO profiles!

He wrote me a note a few days later and wanted to know if I had been answering honestly because the results were being used in a research paper!

What I found fascinating was that: 1.) Everyone in college fitted into just two groups, 2.)That there were clusters of belief, 3.)There were clusters outside of University, 4.)That poor kid's honest belief that his views were common to anyone who knew what the "Truth" was. How far is this from someone comparing our discussion to "Rocket science vs. the tooth fairy"? It's just the flip side so to speak.

Perhaps the biggest and most important thing I've learned while being a part of this and the associated thread(s) is that with only one exception, (Bobnoxious, by name), is that most Skeptics and Scoffers are threatened by ANY deviation from societal dogma. Bad discription. None of them are willing to say, "Okay, I'll give you the ESP but the Ghost thing just goes too far!" The tendency is to fight each incident, not because they're interested in that particular topic, but because if even one paranormal thing can be proven their whole worldview goes out the window.

For me, well, if I find out tomorrow that EVPs are all spill overs from the police band or something, my belief in a life after death wouldn't be shaken.

This made it hard to discuss the paranormal because each point was a huge admission.

My hope is to convince a few people, give paranormal investigators a little ammo for their beliefs, and to develop some sort of REASONABLE level of proof which would make some of our various topics acceptable to people outside of our closed circle. :drink2:
Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
This much let me avow---
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream:
Yet if hope has flown away In a night,
Or in a day, In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

#17 krcguns

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 06:14 PM

Sorry Moon, I meant nothing by that peg remark. I have always equated the paranormal to a square peb in a round hole because it is such an oddity. I will refrain from using it as a term and if I offended anyone by the use of it I apologize, I truly meant nothing by it in any way.
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#18 Chimera

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 06:52 AM

I think that from a sceptic's (it's not a dirty word folks, honest) point of view it looks like people already have the peg and they are desperately searching for holes to put it in.

so does that mean, a skeptic have lot of holes with them, and are trying out every peg so that all the pegs are broken?



I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'ghost'. There seems to be a fairly clear set of accepted truths about ghosts on here. Where do they come from? It seems to me strange that when you find an image on a camera that is not immediately explicable to say 'this is a ghost', furthermore a ghost is a dead person and I know and understand paradigms about the behaviour and characteristics of these things, rather than think 'is there any way that ER was not properly erased?'


mere thinking dont make any sense does it? :ghost:

#19 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 09:03 AM

How about this? .....


Understanding scientific theory and practice can help to eliminate nonparanormal events that have explainations that can easily be explained away by having such knowlege. Im in no way saying science doesnt have its place in the paranormal feild. If its existence is ever to be openly understood by main stream socieity, science will be the avenue by which it will be accepted. The mere logic of science opens the eyes of many skeptics and believers alike. I will also say however that some people will never believe until the day that they die and find out for themselves.

Its the equal of understanding photography in order to eliminate photographic and developmental mistakes in examining photos taken. Or even something as simple as understanding how a tape recorder works in order to use it properly.

A large majority of so called ghost hunters are merely people out looking in old abondoned houses for kicks on the weekends . They dont even fully understand the proper use of their equipment let alone scientific theory or quantum physics.

My contention is that eventhough these folks dont fully understand they still are entitled to an opinion and will have the right to state it here on GhostVillage by virtue of the nature of the site and its openness to opinion. Thats how we learn from one another. Even the most educated people sometimes can learn from a person who raises a point that has been long forgetton in their studies. This has been my experience and I can olny speak for myself.


Now if you want to talk about specifics of these events . Two factors seem to have been present during every case in which a manifestation has occured . Geomagnetic or electromagnetic forces have somehow fluctuated or have been in high account during either a residual energy sighting - voice- or other type of phenomenon.

I wont go into my thoughts on interactive activity at this time at this time . Much too long winded for one post.

Say what you like or think what you think , but science vs that paranormal is more like ....science in understanding alleged paranormal phenomenon . To my ear that sounds more like a conversation than a challenge . Once again this is only my opinion.


Thanks ,

Rockhauler2k1
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#20 krcguns

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 03:55 PM

Well stated Rock. :cheerleader:
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#21 Markway

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 08:41 PM

:wow: Misunderstanding from the beginning! The title of THIS thread is not correct from the standpoint of word construction, but a stab at clarity of purpose was made. It is now." Disbelievers vs. The Paranormal". It should have been "Unbelievers", but I was under stress and a little loaded "on prescription drugs", when I composed it. :cheerleader: :clap: :clap: :clap: :hug: :drink2: :drink2: :drink2:

The paranormal exists in many forms, places and times. To try to relate this huge, and loosely defined set of scientific problems and personal experience into a simple geomagnetic explanation is an interesting idea, but frankly only acts as a fascinating basis for the support of "Window" areas of paranormal activity.( See Lafreniere,Gyslaine, and Persinger, "Space-Time Transients and Unusual Events".)

I have a great deal of respect for science. I have a Phd. in Poly-sci, and a Masters Degree in Political Science and Anthropology. I still have friends in the academic world and until recently was a guest lecturer at a small university.

Rockhauler: I honor your new interest and participation in this thread,Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis . I believe that this is an important discussion, and honor anyone who will carry on this debate, search for truth, and hopefully a middleground. :cheerleader:
Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
This much let me avow---
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream:
Yet if hope has flown away In a night,
Or in a day, In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

#22 Bobnoxious

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 09:43 PM

Sounds reasonable to me, for the most part. I think you said far more succinctly and clearly what I've tried to say in some of my posts. While I'm not 100% convinced of the geomagnetic/electromagnet fields theory, I think it's a good avenue to pursue. But which do you think came first, the chicken or the egg? Do ghosts/spirits/etc cause these fields when they materialize, or do these fields in some way affect the mind? Note: I do not necessarily mean to imply this is "just a hallucination", although that's one possibility. But the effect could be to alter our perceptions slightly so we can see things normally invisible to us.
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#23 Markway

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 10:57 PM

:Spaz: Bob! SOO good to have you back. Seriously.

I am going to throw away all my credibility and expose myself to ridicule. "How?, By actually exposing a little of my true beliefs."

I believe in multiple levels of reality as well, as multiple universes.

If you read the now out of date book about Space Time Transients, you will soon see that strange activity clusters, although is not limited to, predictable spots upon the earth. These areas are related to the electromagnetic field of the earth. I believe that movement between "Realities", or "Universes" is possible at these locations. This might be a testable scientific theory, if it were possible to get respectable scientists to look at it.

I also look at the other direction too, up and down.Devils and Angels, and What Faeries?
Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
This much let me avow---
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream:
Yet if hope has flown away In a night,
Or in a day, In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

#24 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 09:07 PM

Actually you make important point ( Bob) that I am still working on presently and have been for years. The first is the remark about geomagnetic and electromagnetic causing hallucination of the event ( for lack of a better word ) or the event itself being caused by the energy. I do know through several trials and case studies that these events are related but I cant rule out either theory you pose. Both are possible since the human body is effected by energy in many forms.

A case study is a process and it is ongoing . I am still collecting information about experiences from people that live near power lines for instance ( only one area of many ). The ones that dont believe Im totally crazy at any rate . Its tough to go to a persons door and say would you like to participate in a study relating to paranormal phenomenon in this area ? Have you ever seen the boogie man ? Are you willing to be asked a million questions that seem a bit off the regular path ? Its much easier being approached by them, but even then it takes many questions just to decide if the person contacting you is sane . the event is another animal in itself.


Rockhauler2k1

more to come
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#25 Bobnoxious

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 12:00 AM

Well good luck on the study, Rock. I appreciate the fact that you're not going into it trying just to prove the one version of the theory you happen to like.

To get this back on the main topic, some on this forum have complained how "disbelievers" often investigate the paranormal looking to confirm their preconceptions. I can't really argue with that.

What I will say, though, is I think it happens just as much on all sides. I think it's only natural, since investigators are human and humans often let emotions get in the way of their objectivity. But it's irritating to see "disbelievers" who will pass judgment on a case where the evidence is actually inconclusive rather than saying what they should say: "I don't know". And it's equally annoying when believers will rush to accept something as the genuine article without fully investigating it. As the old saying goes, it's often better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
"Future events such as these will affect you in the future." - Criswell, 'Plan 9 From Outer Space'

#26 Markway

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 09:34 AM

:ghost: Here's my first baby steps at using the quote system. Doc was in town and showed me a few moves.

it's irritating to see "disbelievers" who will pass judgment on a case where the evidence is actually inconclusive rather than saying what they should say:  "I don't know".  And it's equally annoying when believers will rush to accept something as the genuine article without fully investigating it.


I couldn't agree with you more on this one Bob. My credo goes like this; assemble in your mind the general outline of the problem and why it merits study. Next research all available information on the incident, problem, whatever. Do not direct the flow of the investigation. Next, draw up an outline of what appears to be happening. Finally, attempt to use whatever science is available to describe what is taking place.

"Must have been", "Probably was", "Impossible", "Sheer B.S.", are not a part of the vocabulary. If science stayed within the box we'd still be using Archimedes' screw! :Spaz:

Rock, I am a little disturbed at the direction of your nascent investigation. Beware of premature conclusions. I agree as an ex electrical contractor/consultant, ( Yes, that and a few guest lectures on how governmental policy is hastening on global Armageddon, is how I kept the wolf from the door!) that high powered electrical field can produce a lot of weird effects on people and property. All such phenomena may not just be upon the brain however.

Some years ago in Britain, an electrician receive a huge shock, but insted of killing him it electrified him. It was even on T.V. during the '60's. This man actually had to ground himself before he came into the house or he'd knock his wife on her BAD_WORD. UFO's are seen around power lines. Do the power lines cause the sightings, or draw the UFO's?

During Tesla's experiments at Colorado Springs there were a VERY generous helping of Ball Lightning(s)(?)(!) shooting out of the ground. Beware premature results! :weeee:
Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
This much let me avow---
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream:
Yet if hope has flown away In a night,
Or in a day, In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

#27 boris

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 12:39 AM

:Spaz: The paranormal is what it is. It must be taken on faith if it is taken at all. Some folks have difficulty taking something on faith. Others have difficulty searching for a strictly logical explanation. We all have reasons for which path we take. We also have our own "square pegs" and often try to fit them into theoretical holes we come up against. I am a Christian-Spiritualist who has a close friend that is an Atheist. We get along remarkably well considering our opposing views. I once asked him why he didn't believe that the paranormal could exist. His answer was "Because it doesn't make any sense." I then asked him if it made sense that professional athletes were paid what they are; especially considering when people in other important professions make far less. He admitted that, to him, it didn't. I pointed out that just because it didn't make sense it still happens. Other examples were discussed (i.e. War; penalties for violating certain laws - punishment for some lesser offenses are worse than for major offenses). We have sparred with our "square pegs" for years. I haven't changed his mind. He is a much better debater than I am yet he hasn't changed mine. Now, we just accept that we aren't going to change the other's view and argue for the fun of it (and the intellectual challenge). If I didn't respect his views I'd be one less good friend and much less knowledgeable about some things than I am. In any case I take the existence of the supernatural on faith. I also think there are very scientific and logical reasons for doing so, even if there is no "hard (tangible)" evidence. As a case in point, in the medical field there are certain life-saving drugs that have only a theoretical basis for why they work. Lithium, for example, has a success rate in treating bipolar (manic-depressive) illness that goes far beyond anything a placebo could do. Twin studies have shown a possible genetic predisposition to that illness. Yet we don't yet have the technology to actually photograph the gene that is theorized to cause the illness. So does that mean folks plagued by bipolar illness, or depression, or various anxiety disorders should just stop taking their medication? I think even hard-line skeptics of psychology and psychiatry would be hard pressed to answer "yes" to this one.
"...The Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw; and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire..." 2 Kings 6: 17b. (There's nothing like seeing the unseen, especially when it's an army of spirits!)

#28 Markway

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 07:32 AM

:Spaz: Dear Boris:

It is good to hear from someone new.

I have had a life experience similar to your own. I took your position, my best friend was not too different from your friend. I went through the whole thing, but here we are 30 years later; my friend is Doc Phibes. Just listen to him in the "Science vs. The Paranormal" thread.

If a person is intellectually honest, and continues to read, they will often adapt their viewpoint to accept reality. We should be too.

I would like to think that people who damage their lives by adopting as unpopular a view as ours do so out of a reasoned line of thinking. This isn't The Billy Graham Hotline! Faith has it's place, and a lot of us go directly to GO! because of some experience that we've had. Even so, it is very wise to fully examine that strangeness and asure ourselves that it isn't some prosaic thing like the laundry blowing in the breeze. :P
Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
This much let me avow---
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream:
Yet if hope has flown away In a night,
Or in a day, In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

#29 boris

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 04:06 AM

:hug2: Markway,
Thanks for the acknowledgement and feedback. I had this thought about unbelievers vs. the paranormal after going through this thread. Perhaps there is room for a modicum of skepticism, verification of facts, and some intuitive acceptance of unexplained phenomena as being truly paranormal. Is anyone really purely rational or purely intuitive? Does something taken on faith necessarily mean that reason doesn't enter into it? When I read accounts in books or on this site I generally am skeptical about many, see the possibility of occurence in others, and accept a few outright. Interestingly, the ones I do fully accept are on the basis of intuition. So are the one's I'm skeptical about. That's not to say that acceptance is devoid of reasoning. For example, I once witnessed a phenomena very similar to that of the Black Forest Haunting. Cold spots, the movement of ground cover where I could detect no breeze, the strong feeling of a presence, and the appearance of strange orbs with comet-like tails that moved about the trees and seemed to disappear and reappear through solid objects, and the ground itself, are all things picked up by the senses. One person witnessed these phenomena with me. We high-tailed it out of there after about twenty-minutes when we both sensed a kind of warning. Neither of us could explain what we saw. Nor could we convince some of our cohorts back at camp that our little adventure was real. A few did believe it because they knew a history of the site that I had no knowledge of. Recently, my wife, who experienced cold and warm spots in that area with me and the distinct feeling that blood had been spilled out there was talking with a co-worker. Somehow, those incidents, which occured in 1982 came up in their conversation. Her colleague was taken aback as she knew the place and its' history, having grown up near there. There is no doubt in my mind we experienced a paranormal event. I had two witnesses on two occasions who saw and/or felt cold spots in the same area on warm summer evenings where the air was still. One of those witnesses got a visual with me. So we had tangible evidence. We still can't prove it. But I'm not going to stop believing what I saw and felt emotionally. I think we get into trouble when we try to separate or deny emotion in the face of rationality and vice-versa. We are human beings. That means we are largely emotional and somewhat rational. It's a package deal! :D P.S. I'm still open to natural/scientific explanations (although they would be theoretical and have to be taken on belief unless tangible evidence proved or disproved the event's nature as pertaining to the paranormal).
"...The Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw; and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire..." 2 Kings 6: 17b. (There's nothing like seeing the unseen, especially when it's an army of spirits!)

#30 plindboe

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 11:59 AM

Europe is one generation ahead of The States, (or so my compatriots have told me, correct me if I am wrong)and in their sacred halls of higher learning the professors lean towards a purely atheistic point of view.  I do not state this as a fact.  If you have a different opinion concerning what goes on in a european university please correct me.


I have studied in a european university, and have never heard anyone, especially teachers, comment on anything religious. Of course, I wasn't studying religion, so I can't see why that subject should even be brought up. Perhaps it would upset someone strictly religious that their favorite belief isn't mentioned regularly, and would consider such to be atheistic, but that would be that person's problem, not the university's.

You also seem to imply in your post that atheists are scoffers. I find that to be quite offensive and arrogant. Just because you have a belief that means alot to you doesn't mean that everyone should believe the same.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." (Bertrand Russell)




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