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Explanation for Orbs?


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#1 sleepyguy

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 09:13 PM

Hi,

I am not a skeptic, but I've a ton of friends who are. In fact, a lot of them have been giving me a hard time regarding some of the Orb pictures I have taken with friends, on different cameras at the same spot (different nights at this time, but we are going to go and take multiple cameras out and do some better logging when we do it). If I can find a place to host some images, I will post them up, but the images I have found resemble the ones from this site: http://www.southjers...ses4/07034.html

Anyways, if anyone could provide me with some scientific/experiential reasons for why Orbs appear, I would really appreciate it. I would like to try to do my best to keep it from happening in the future (well, the scientific things), so I can say that the ones I do find are more likely to be the case.

(I do have pics up on myspace... www.myspace.com/snoozebrothers My bro and I are starting up our own Paranormal investigations type gig, as we've been amateurly ghost hunting for the past six years, and wanted to get a bit more into it).

Thanks,
Ed

#2 Richard Kimmel

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 02:51 PM

Hi,

I am not a skeptic, but I've a ton of friends who are. In fact, a lot of them have been giving me a hard time regarding some of the Orb pictures I have taken with friends, on different cameras at the same spot (different nights at this time, but we are going to go and take multiple cameras out and do some better logging when we do it). If I can find a place to host some images, I will post them up, but the images I have found resemble the ones from this site: http://www.southjers...ses4/07034.html

Anyways, if anyone could provide me with some scientific/experiential reasons for why Orbs appear, I would really appreciate it. I would like to try to do my best to keep it from happening in the future (well, the scientific things), so I can say that the ones I do find are more likely to be the case.

(I do have pics up on myspace... www.myspace.com/snoozebrothers My bro and I are starting up our own Paranormal investigations type gig, as we've been amateurly ghost hunting for the past six years, and wanted to get a bit more into it).

Thanks,
Ed


Ed
I've known Dave Juiano for the past couple of years, he's done some joint investigations with my daughter's group New Jersey Ghost Organization and has also turned some investigations over to us due to his tight schedule. He's a great guy, knowledgeable and helpful ... runs a tight ship which is a big plus.

Edited by Richard Kimmel, 09 November 2007 - 02:52 PM.

"He who asserts must also prove" - Aristotle


#3 sleepyguy

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 04:08 PM

Hi,

I am not a skeptic, but I've a ton of friends who are. In fact, a lot of them have been giving me a hard time regarding some of the Orb pictures I have taken with friends, on different cameras at the same spot (different nights at this time, but we are going to go and take multiple cameras out and do some better logging when we do it). If I can find a place to host some images, I will post them up, but the images I have found resemble the ones from this site: http://www.southjers...ses4/07034.html

Anyways, if anyone could provide me with some scientific/experiential reasons for why Orbs appear, I would really appreciate it. I would like to try to do my best to keep it from happening in the future (well, the scientific things), so I can say that the ones I do find are more likely to be the case.

(I do have pics up on myspace... www.myspace.com/snoozebrothers My bro and I are starting up our own Paranormal investigations type gig, as we've been amateurly ghost hunting for the past six years, and wanted to get a bit more into it).

Thanks,
Ed


Ed
I've known Dave Juiano for the past couple of years, he's done some joint investigations with my daughter's group New Jersey Ghost Organization and has also turned some investigations over to us due to his tight schedule. He's a great guy, knowledgeable and helpful ... runs a tight ship which is a big plus.


Sounds great! I was reading on their site a bit, and found those pics, which have a resemblence to some that I took in my area (the orbs have a resemblence), and so I was just curious if any photographers have some reasoning for the orbs, other than that they are spirits etc... I find it hard to believe that its specks of dust, or something on the lense, because shots that are taken very shortly after do not have the same orbs, and if the orbs are there, they are not in the same place. I was just curious if there was something such as a theory behind the refraction of light from something or what not... I want to be able to try and eliminate these things where possible (well the "fake" ones, i want the real ones to come in hehe).

#4 sleepyguy

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 04:08 PM

double post, sorry

Edited by sleepyguy, 09 November 2007 - 04:09 PM.


#5 nnyprs

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 02:19 AM

OK, the majority of theories range from the orbs being the simplest form of energy a spirit can take to being a spirits way of moving. Personally I am more for the first. 95% of orb pictures on the web, and sorry to say, in the GV photography board, can be explained as dust, moisture, or reflective orbs. It has a face? It was probably taken with a digital camera and the face is caused by pixelation or matrixing.

The orbs I like to see show movement. I place more credence with orbs taken on 35 MM cameras, and that show blurriness on one side or a streak. This "normally" shows that the "orb" is moving faster than the camera shutter speed. Unless you are in a windy environment or a rain shower, most dust, moisture or reflective orbs will not have these qualities.
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#6 AbbeyGal

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 09:00 AM

My group, R.I.P. Ohio, did a lot of experimentation with photography to see if we could recreate orbs. We found that when the flash is removed from the lens by several inches, you don't get orbs. That gives credence to the theory that they are just dust. Then I started working in a place where professional photographers come through a lot. Sure enough, their equipment is inevitably set up so that the flash is held away from the camera by at least 6 inches.

That said, I'm not willing to blow orbs off entirely. I've seen them several times with my naked eye that looked either like luminous soap bubbles or bright floating lights. The hardest ones to debunk were a swarm of about 10 I saw in a cemetery on a cloudy day. They started off as dark spots, so I thought I had floaters in my eyes. Then they transformed into bright lights as intense as magnesium flares, moved for another second or two, then blipped out. They were bright enough to leave burn in in my eyes. I'll be darned if I can think of any plausible scientific explanation for that.

Edited by AbbeyGal, 10 November 2007 - 09:04 AM.


#7 sleepyguy

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:03 PM

Wonderful,
thanks for the tip on the flash! I didn't even think of that. I will have to give it a try. My camera's flash is about one and a half to two and a half inches (dont have it at work with me) above the lense body, and about two inches back away from it, Id imagine it would still cause the orbs... thoughts? My brother's camera however is set in line with the lense.

Im using a Fuji Finepix S series (I think its an older 2300... the 3.3 megapixel one). Id hate to have to go buy a new one =( Well, I suppose I could look for movement and not just sitting ones.

As for the spiritual explanation, yeah I agree that it is the energy, or perhaps the residual energy from the spirit and not the spirit itself. Ive a really neat picture of my brother and I standing in a corridor, we felt something occur, and so we climbed out of the corridor, and another picture was taken from a different angle (wasn't intentionally done to find orbs, was just a pic that was taken) and you can see two vague orbs that are standing still. Granted, I have no EMF readings to prove activity was occuring, no temperature readings etc... but I know when the pics were taken, and they are in the same spot as he and I were standing in when we felt something. My theory is that the orbs we saw there were residual from when we... not sure the right way to put this, but were psychically touched/alerted/contacted...

I've some other pictures that I _want_ to believe are orbs, but there is so much broken glass on the ground I can't help but chalk the tons of orbs up to being wierd reflections from the glass on the ground, even though there are no glints from the flash. Although I feel pretty confident that it wasn't a dirty lense at the same time. I don't know, we are going to go out to the spot we took those pictures at (from various times) and take some EMF readings and start to document what we see and feel. We know the place like the back of our hands (well I do at least), I spent way too many nights out there in the dark doing stupid stuff that could have gotten me killed when I was 18, but Ive also had tons of paranormal experiences out there that I cannot explain scientifically. Some I can chalk up to a number of things, but others I cannot ignore. Once my gaussmeter gets in, I want to take some day time EMF levels and some night time ones, to see if they vary, or if its the same all the time. When we go up there, the feeling of being watched is extremely common at night, but I do not typically feel the "paranoia" that in the day time that I do at night. So I wanted to confirm that there is an EMF frequency change between the two, or if the area is just highly active EMF wise, and thus when you add night into the mixture, the paranoia reaches a point that you can actually feel.

The area used to be an old gold and silver mill, so I expect there to be a higher than normal EMF reading (at least based on my limited knowledge of how metals and minerals effect EMF). Does anyone know at what levels of EMF that humans begin to become paranoid? Perhaps I can google it... Actually, instead of hijacking my own thread, I will repost in the equipment section...

Thanks for the info and warm reception here!

Ed

#8 stevenedel

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:32 PM

These things have been amply and quite rationally explained; orbs of any type can be reproduced under controlled circumstances. They are simple lighting artefacts to which digital camera's are particularly prone. Here's the whole story for those who can deal with the fact that orbs aren't ghosts: http://www.theorbzone.com/index.htm

(In fact, even if we couldn't explain them, that wouldn't imply in an yway that they are therefore paranormal.)
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#9 nnyprs

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:46 PM

I looked and looked and looked....and finally found there "rational" explanation for what I believe to be "true spirit orbs", the ones with movement. Their assertions are that the ones with tails, which I like best, are taken outside and going in a downward direction...so easy...it's RAIN!!!

I am sorry to say these guys DID NOT do there homework. We have many orbs that are moving side to side, indoors, with no fans, A/C units or heaters working to propel a dust particle like that. They just dismiss instead of doing REAL research...anothe reason why I hate so many of these "hobby hunters" out there. I am not necesarily calling these people hobby hunters, but there are so many out there I get sick reading their "Un-biased" opinions.
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#10 sleepyguy

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 06:31 PM

These things have been amply and quite rationally explained; orbs of any type can be reproduced under controlled circumstances. They are simple lighting artefacts to which digital camera's are particularly prone. Here's the whole story for those who can deal with the fact that orbs aren't ghosts: http://www.theorbzone.com/index.htm

(In fact, even if we couldn't explain them, that wouldn't imply in an yway that they are therefore paranormal.)



Regardless of what they are, its still neat to find them and neat to call them what you will. I dont need technology to experience paranormal activity, nor do I need someone dictating to me what is and is not within certain bounds. On both sides of the argument, you will find people who staunchly believe they are ghosts/spirits, whilst on the other there are those who will staunchly disagree. I appreciate the link, I will be checking it out as I can definetely try to eliminate as many false positives as I can feasibly control. While I may still get orbs, or may not... that will remain to be seen.

I believe that sometimes they are more than just light artifacts, I could be wrong. In the end, as long as it doesn't become a detriment to my life, or those around me, I don't see whats wrong in having opinions that may not be correct.

#11 stevenedel

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 05:44 AM

Not just rain, nyyprs - dust, insects, moisture. Please read the whole story before getting angry. (Why?).

Dust particles need no fans or drafts to move around; they are so small that the movement of oxygen molecules is enough to set them in motion. Anbd insects, well, they fly. Why a moving orb should necessarily be a ghost I don't see. How can you know what it is if all you see is a moving speck of light?

Sleepyguy, everybody is free to believe any nonsense they like; but this is the skeptics board, and skeptics as a rule do not understand why you would want to believe things that are pretty obviously false. Incorrect beliefs ("Some women are witches"; "Jews are the root of all evil"; "Bloodletting cures diseases"; "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction") haven't done the world much good in the past. This particular belief is also not doing the paranormal community much good I think; it is one of the silliest things it has come up with, and mainly proves how desperately prepared the community is to seize upon anything remotely 'strange' in order to find 'proof'.

Also I wonder, why would you need this belief in orbs? What good does it do you? How would your life be the poorer without it?
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#12 sleepyguy

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 03:43 PM

My response was more general than solely based on what it is I feel. Yeah, I tend to think that it is plausible that those orbs are more than just the items listed on their site or on some of the other sites. The "belief" in orbs doesn't further my life, nor would the existence make it any poorer if it were not there. I would hope that the truth of orbs has little to no impact on peoples lives, but I am sure that you and I would both agree that there are those out there who do find some addition to their life by it being there.

As for me, orbs is the reason that I became interested in getting beyond the adrenaline rush of ghost hunting for the fun of it. Therefore, orbs have a somewhat slight value to me. If orbs paranormal, then my reasoning for jumping into paranormal research is that much more justified. If they are not, which is the overall conclusion that I am gathering from the aforementioned link as well as many other researchers, then it is still justified that much more because that is the nature of research, debunk or lend credance. Do I believe that orbs are paranormal, to give you an exact answer: maybe. While I may not completely agree with NNYPRS, I do agree on the idea that sometimes, perhaps they are. The research that you provided in no way disproves that orbs are paranormal. It only provides extremely convincing evidence that the overwhelming majority of orbs, especially those taken with a digitial camera, are from various natural occurences.

I do not believe that there is any way to prove that every orb is a refraction of light based on particles in the air, just as there is no way to prove that every orb is paranormal. The nature of research is to create a normal curve, and to find the normalized limits with in them. Thus speaking, it is apparent to me, that there *may* be outliers that actually are paranormal. In order to be a scientist, you must be a skeptic of all sides, and be prepared to examine the nature of the results. While I will not argue that the results show that orbs are refractions of particles in the air, I also will not pretend to be omnipotent and state that this evidence means that every orb is such. Science rarely proves anything, it merely provides evidence supporting one thing or the other. There is usually an exception to the rules in most everything in science. This usually is not the case when it comes to the Laws of Science, gravity for instance... Until something is proven to be a law however, it is still a theory. And one must remain unbiased to the subject at hand, or they will likeley always find their results skewed. The same is obvious for those who believe 100% in orbs. When do they find them? When they are looking for them. I found orbs in tons of photos that I had taken years ago, ones I didnt know existed before... why? Because I was looking for them.

I just do not understand why YOUR life would be that much more fulfilled if EVERYONE believed the way you do? How does YOUR belief differ from those that believed the Jews were the root of all evil? If everyone has to see things your way... the "scientifically proven way", how does it differ with someone who believes that everyone should believe in smurfs?

Stevenedel,
I truly appreciate your points. Please do not take my reposing of questions to you as flaming or trolling. I just sensed a bit of hypocrisy in it, and felt the need to point it out. Yes I came to the skeptics boards, and yes I learned something useful. Your link was very informative, and I do appreciate it. I look forward to discussing similar subjects in the future.

Ed

#13 nnyprs

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:28 AM

First, I just want to say, as an ex-moderator, this topic is starting to stray from it's original intention. And to Steve, I did indeed read their whole site, and they did say very clearly that moving orbs are usually rain. ANd the way you know it is because they are outside and they are going downwards.

" Orbs with tails

Now orbs with 'tails' really are moving! However the fact that the vast majority of such photos are taken outdoors is the first clue: they are rain. This occurs because rain falls faster than the time it takes for the camera to record an image.

Another striking - and unusual - observation here is that these tails always have seem to be stretching downwards (albeit diagonally on occasion) whereas common sense would dictate that the tail should be above the orb (as it is falling downwards, in line with gravity). "

On the same page, it does talk about insects, but only in one certain context.

Another thing you have wrong is that you think that I think a moving orb HAS to be paranormal.

Why a moving orb should necessarily be a ghost I don't see.


I never stated that. The problem with skeptics is that generally, they assume what others think and they do not look at things with an open mind. They only look at ways to make it false, instead of simply looking at what is there. I am not like a lot of them out there that I KNOW you are grouping me with. I record data. I analyze the data. Things that don't seem right, I try to replicate. If I am unable to make it happen again, it goes in the maybe column.

If you can not look at the evidence in question with an open-mind, you will never find the truth. You will only find what you want to see.
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#14 sleepyguy

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:30 AM

Ill second that, if there are any mods lurking about, perhaps this topic could be closed. I think I received my answer, and to sum it up, it has changed the way I was looking at things. Thank you all for your time and information.

#15 Richard Kimmel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 03:22 PM

In keeping with my philosophy of keeping things simple ... A true spirit energy orb is SOLID, WHITE and BRIGHT.

"He who asserts must also prove" - Aristotle





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