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#136 angelinayorke

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 05:45 PM

Bridget~you will be very happy to know that I went cloudbusting. Quite easily I must say.
I was at work and had a few minutes to kill, busted TWO clouds in three minutes. It was freaky!!!
Will be going at it again today!
Boston, you know we love you madly,Hear the crowd roar to your sound,Don't blame us if we ever doubt you,You know we couldn't live without you, Tessie, you are the only only only (RED SOX YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES)~Dropkick Murphys

#137 flyingorb

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 08:23 PM

*Gazes intently at James Randi with his best "cloud bustin" technique*

*stares and concentrates harder*

*harder.....*

*Grooaaannn...and even harder*

*still tryin*

*Starts turning red from effort*

*gasp....aaaahhhhhh...gasp*

Awww, I give up. I guess this proves that just cause something is full of hot air, it ain't necessarily a cloud! :lol:
CRY HAVOK! Let Slip The Chihuahuas Of War.....When an ORB dies.......a Chihuahua is born!

#138 Bridget

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 01:44 AM

{{{{{Angelina}}}}} Yes! I have created yet another cloud buster! Woo hoooo!


Orbie, thanks for your efforts! Sorry you got all steamed up over that one!



:weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee:
If it looks like an orb, floats like an orb, it must be an orb!If you're reading this, you're too close!________________________________________________Posted Image

#139 Bobnoxious

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 03:10 AM

Dear Plindboe, I see that you are also logged on, and after I post this I will be faced with another imposing block of arguement. :weeee:

Firstly, what I claimed was that Randi attempted to intimidate a challenger with what I suspect he thought was an impossible set of strictures, but that when the chips were down he paniced, and then used his respectability to discredit the challenger.  Please, for just one moment, look at this from the outside.  Turn your skeptic's eye upon Randi. 


Since Peter didn't jump on this, I guess I'll have a go. First, let me say that I turn my skeptics eye on everyone and everything. That's what being agnostic is about. I take no one's opinion at face value. Based on what I've seen and heard, Randi's writing and spoken comments in general hold up much better than the writing and spoken comments of the paranomalists he debunks. It's impossible to assess the merits of the example you're talking about without further evidence, but until I see reason to think otherwise, I'm siding with Randi. Randi doesn't try to come up with "impossible" strictures. Every person who has been tested by him has agreed in advance that the testing procedures were fair. It's only when they fail that they suddenly find fault with Randi's protocols.

Professionally, Randi has become a paid skeptic, and a mouthpiece for a number of skeptic publications.  The money evidence you posted seem to me to be settled annuities rather than banked prize money waiting to be claimed.  So, here it is.  What happens to Randi if someone collects? First, HE is discredited.  His position is discredited.  He makes money from claiming that the paranormal doesn't exist, writing, I suspect, for Skeptic magazine or whatever.  What then happens to that job?  And, of course, he has to come up with the 1 million, the whole time believing that he's been  "tricked".

To call Randi a professional skeptic and imply that he's somehow getting rich off of what he's doing is just not accurate. The Geller lawsuits alone cost him a great deal of money, and I guarantee you that mags like Skeptic and The Skeptical Inquirer don't have anywhere close to the circulation levels to pay anything substantial to their contributors. What money Randi has, he made from his years as a stage magician and from designing Alice Cooper's stage effects. I seriously doubt that Randi worries about that check from Skeptic coming in every month so he can pay the mortgage or buy groceries. The fact that, at his age, he's still active in investigations that bear very little financial fruit says to me that this is something he just considers important.

Do you really want to trust a person like this to be your cheerleader?  Have you read his position?  He claims that if he can duplicate a paranormal performance, by using stage magic, that he has disproven whatever went on.  To the dispassionate person, this is rather ridiculous.  Because we can fake pictures of the moonlanding in'69 some people claim that  is just what happened.  Do you believe this too?


Markway, I love ya buddy, but that's a distortion of what Randi says. He readily admits that his being able to reproduce a paranormal phenomenon through stage magic is not proof that a given paranormal phenomenon was produced that way. He's simply saying that if you can't tell the difference just by observing, then it's reasonable to assume that stage magic is a possible explanation. And if stage magic is a possible explanation, then there's no reason to jump to the conclusion that paranormal powers are involved in a given phenomenon without first eliminating that possibility.

By the way, the meteor issue took about seven to eight hundred years to resolve.  I hope that serious treatment of the paranormal doesn't take another 800 years.


Considering your background in history, I'm sure you know that's somewhat unfair. Until recently in the history of the world, science has been impeded by the authority of the biggest paranormal racket going, namely religion (just ask Galilleo). On top of that, some discoveries simply weren't possible until recently due to technological advances. Maybe someday technological advances will prove the paranormal. But considering the many documented cases where so-called paranormal phenomena turned out to be self deception or outright blatant lying, you'll have to forgive me if I don't hold out much hope.

For such abilities as ESP, dowsing, spoon bending, and the like, high tech testing isn't necessary. There are simple tests that can be devised to find out if these abilities work or not. So far, no one has passed these tests. And it's not just the folks on your most hated list performing these tests, but regular garden variety scientists. There's simply no evidence beyond the anecdotal, and that's just not enough to warrant completely throwing out all the rest of scientific knowledge which has been verified by testing and which provides practical results on a regular basis.
"Future events such as these will affect you in the future." - Criswell, 'Plan 9 From Outer Space'

#140 plindboe

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 04:15 PM

Mark,

Bob commented very nicely on your arguments and claims, so I'll just make a short response based on these quotes:

Turn your skeptic's eye upon Randi.
....
Do you really want to trust a person like this to be your cheerleader?


I hold everything up to the same scrutiny. Just because I admire Randi doesn't mean that I agree with everything he says, and it certainly doesn't mean that he's my cheerleader as you unjustly stated.

People who starts slandering Randi because they have failed the challenge or because their application has been denied due to various reasons don't have much credibility. To elaborate; people who are angry or disappointed and want to get payback aren't exactly good witnesses. The fact that people have to agree with the terms when applying, or have to agree with the protocol for the testing, means that the responsibility lies with themselves.

Peter :D
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." (Bertrand Russell)

#141 Bridget

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 05:11 PM

But, but, Peter, did you like my tap dancing? Wasn't I just a little bit attractive to you?

Booo Hooo You didn't even comment on my performance *****SOBS*****



:D :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee:
If it looks like an orb, floats like an orb, it must be an orb!If you're reading this, you're too close!________________________________________________Posted Image

#142 angelinayorke

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 05:14 PM

:D No cloudbusting today. Sky is COMPLETELY clear!!!!!!
Boston, you know we love you madly,Hear the crowd roar to your sound,Don't blame us if we ever doubt you,You know we couldn't live without you, Tessie, you are the only only only (RED SOX YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES)~Dropkick Murphys

#143 Bridget

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 05:19 PM

HA HA! Angelina! See? You did it! Made sky clear! We all need to cloudbust all over the U.S. and make our skies clear!




:D :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee:
If it looks like an orb, floats like an orb, it must be an orb!If you're reading this, you're too close!________________________________________________Posted Image

#144 angelinayorke

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 05:24 PM

LOL!!!!!!
Boston, you know we love you madly,Hear the crowd roar to your sound,Don't blame us if we ever doubt you,You know we couldn't live without you, Tessie, you are the only only only (RED SOX YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES)~Dropkick Murphys

#145 Markway

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 05:52 PM

Dear Peter and Bob:

I respect you two a lot, and I will tell you why. Too many people are unwilling to discuss anything. Most people do not discuss. I come from a family composed of debate oriented dispassionate scandanavians, and black-sheep violent hillbilly/New England water rats who would kill you as soon as look at you. The Norskies predominated, and I grew up around a lot of heated, but good-natured debate. I quickly discovered that this was not the case among most groups. Too many people deal strictly from belief and are unwilling to enen discuss what they believe. So, kudos to you both. Too many people on GV will not even discuss their beliefs with another believer.

I do wonder why you come to GV though. I wonder whether you both have some doubts about the totally material world.

Truth must be the goal guys, and the scientific method may not always be the only or the best tool.

As we speak, I am a "born-again" Christian. As I've said before, not the Bush variety. But that was not an easy destination for me. You must know how easy it is to say,"I'm an agnostic." At least is here in Washington, among college graduates. The way that I got to where I am at is by being around some real Christians. I have seen and experienced things that you wouldn't believe, and do not plan to share, but after being there, feeling and seeing that, how could I look away? Sometimes in prayer I can FEEL power flowing in, over, and through everyone there. There's a whole lot more but I stop. Religion is now the only "Paranormal" experience which receives any respect at all, and I don't like to play upon people's learned courtesy.

My goal is to search out truth, and I am confidant that all truth converges. Science, true science which is willing to examine subjects outside of their paradigm, cannot hurt spirituality, or the truth of the non-material realm. Frankly, I side with the paranormal activists because their life paradigm is more open than that of the scientific world. Forget Randi, the man is closed minded and living a life based upon denial rather than exploration. Writing too long. What do you guys say, I plan on carrying on this debate in a new thread so as to not dominate this one. I plan on putting it in Skeptics, and call it "Science vs. The Paranormal"
Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
This much let me avow---
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream:
Yet if hope has flown away In a night,
Or in a day, In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

#146 plindboe

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 07:45 PM

Dear Peter and Bob:

I respect you two a lot, and I will tell you why.  Too many people are unwilling to discuss anything.  Most people do not discuss.  I come from a family composed of debate oriented dispassionate scandanavians, and black-sheep violent hillbilly/New England water rats who would kill you as soon as look at you.  The Norskies predominated, and I grew up around a lot of heated, but good-natured debate.  I quickly discovered that this was not the case among most groups.  Too many people deal strictly from belief and are unwilling to enen discuss what they believe.  So, kudos to you both.  Too many people on GV will not even discuss their beliefs with another believer.


Hi Mark. Thanks, and I agree with you. Debating is very important, otherwise people easily reach far fetched beliefs.


I do wonder why you come to GV though.  I wonder whether you both have some doubts about the totally material world.


I'm always on the look out for evidence to counter my beliefs. That is one of the reasons I'm here, to find evidence to counter my belief that the material world is all there is. So far I have been disappointed, but I will never give up the search. Another reason that I'm here is because I think debating is important. No significant achiements are ever reached if you only debate people that you already agree with, that is why I'm here to debate with people who have quite different beliefs than my own.


Truth must be the goal guys, and the scientific method may not always be the only or the best tool.


I have heard that mentioned alot, but when I ask people to give an example of a method other than the scientific, that reveals reliable and confirmable results, I never get an answer. With religions for example, people have faith that they achieve such answers, but it's just faith, and not something that can in any way be established to actually exist. And considering the extreme differences between religions it certainly doesn't seem like they are paths to Truth.


As we speak, I am a "born-again" Christian.  As I've said before, not the Bush variety.  But that was not an easy destination for me.  You must know how easy it is to say,"I'm an agnostic."  At least is here in Washington, among college graduates.


I'm not an agnostic, but an atheist. To use a popular definition, I'm a strong atheist, which means that I have the belief that there is no god(s). I have this belief due to the deafening lack of evidence, the same way that I disbelieve that any football stadiums are currently in orbit around Neptune. That doesn't mean that it's knowledge or a final conclusion, but simply a belief that could be altered if contradictory evidence was ever revealed. But just because I have a belief that no such superbeing(s) exists, doesn't mean that I'm not open to evidence to the contrary. In fact, I'd love for the christian idea of an afterlife to be true with a Heaven where I would meet my loved ones after I die. That said, I do find the idea of Hell to be absolutely sickening.


The way that I got to where I am at is by being around some real Christians.  I have seen and experienced things that you wouldn't believe, and do not plan to share, but after being there, feeling and seeing that, how could I look away?  Sometimes in prayer I can FEEL power flowing in, over, and through everyone there.  There's a whole lot more but I stop.  Religion is now the only "Paranormal" experience which receives any respect at all, and I don't like to play upon people's learned courtesy.


I have heard from atheists, who were former believers, say that they have experienced the same religious feelings after they became atheists, during rock concerts instead of during prayer or church attendance. Why not consider that it could simply be a feeling and nothing more?


My goal is to search out truth, and I am confidant that all truth converges.  Science, true science which is willing to examine subjects outside of their paradigm, cannot hurt spirituality, or the truth of the non-material realm.  Frankly, I side with the paranormal activists because their life paradigm is more open than that of the scientific world.  Forget Randi, the man is closed minded and living a life based upon denial rather than exploration.  Writing too long.  What do you guys say, I plan on carrying on this debate in a new thread so as to not dominate this one.  I plan on putting it in Skeptics, and call it "Science vs. The Paranormal"


People with paranormal beliefs usually get hell-bend on their favorite belief as well, and dismiss any evidence that points to the mundane. The common definition of open-mindedness is the ability to change one's mind when faced with new evidence, and that is one of the great abilities of science. Religions and certain paranormal beliefs have barely changed throughout the centuries, yet these, in reality close-minded beliefs, are considered to be the more open-minded ones. :rolleyes:
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." (Bertrand Russell)

#147 plindboe

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 07:48 PM

But, but, Peter, did you like my tap dancing? Wasn't I just a little bit attractive to you?

Call me weird, but I don't find tap dancing all that erotic. :)
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." (Bertrand Russell)

#148 Bobnoxious

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 08:33 PM

Peter and Markway: I copied your last two posts and moved them to the new thread. Hope you don't mind. That's where I'll be replying to this stuff henceforth so the cloudbusters can go back to talking about cloudbusting.
"Future events such as these will affect you in the future." - Criswell, 'Plan 9 From Outer Space'

#149 plindboe

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 08:40 PM

Good idea, though I was editing my a few words in my post in order to clarify, and you copied and pasted before I was done. Delete your post there please, as I will transfer my last one with quotes, smiley, edits and all into that thread. Sorry for being a pain.
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#150 Bridget

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Posted 16 April 2005 - 08:59 AM

But, but, Peter, did you like my tap dancing? Wasn't I just a little bit attractive to you?

Call me weird, but I don't find tap dancing all that erotic. :)

Okay! Bridget does a belly dance and hopes this is not the end of the cloudbusting thread!


:weeee: :P :weeee: :weeee: :weeee: :weeee:
If it looks like an orb, floats like an orb, it must be an orb!If you're reading this, you're too close!________________________________________________Posted Image




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