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Never bet the devil your head


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#16 spooksareus

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 01:34 AM

Actually my mother was a diagnosed MPD.
One of the most kind and (strangely no pun intended) selfless
people I have ever known.

However, malignant narcissism is often mistaken for a "big fat ego trip".

The question is: Are those who have this very self absorbed malady
and other such personality disorders evil?

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#17 Axman

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 02:58 AM

I don't feel that anyone who is mentally disturbed in any way means they are necessarily evil. Some perfectly sane people were/are evil.
Ah. Well... I attended Juilliard... I'm a graduate of the Harvard business school. I travel quite extensively. I lived through the Black Plague and had a pretty good time during that. I've seen the EXORCIST ABOUT A HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN TIMES, AND IT KEEPS GETTING FUNNIER EVERY SINGLE TIME I SEE IT... NOT TO MENTION THE FACT THAT YOU'RE TALKING TO A DEAD GUY... NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK? You think I'm qualified? --BeetlejuiceI'm the ghost with the most, babe.--BeetlejuiceWe've come for your daughter Chuck--Beetlejuice

#18 aloha_spirit

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 03:10 AM

I do believe in Satan as an actual person. I believe I have seen him under various circumstances.

The first time was when I was about 5 years old. I noticed a shadow on my wall without anything to cause it. This shadow would play and talk with me. Over the course of years I got to know him better, and I could see his coloration. Strangely I never had a name for him until I was 9.

On the fateful afternoon, the shadow was talking a bit weird (but in its usual voice). It told me he could make sure my family would never want for money again, if I would only promise to live with him forever. I knew of only one being who couldmake such an offer, so asked the shadow to aknowledge his identity. Having been turned down, he got angry and started shouting. He told me that he made the same offer to my dad years ago (and mentioned the obscure town my father was born and raised). He told me he would place the same curse on me as he did my dad: that he would haunt my posterity until one of them said yes. He then slammed the door shut, but I was able to pry it open and run downstairs. As I was running through the kitchen, I overheard my dad telling my brothers a tale I'd never heard: when my dad was a lad he wrestled with Satan! I was too scared to say anything to my family, so I continued running until I reached a friend's house. For months this evil entity tormented me (he even once stabbed me in the back with a long blade - I still have the scar). At the end of the summer, my family moved to a different state and I didn't see that shadow for a season.

My next encounter happened in the Pratt Building of the Missionary Training Center (MTC) in Provo, Utah when I was 19. The MTC has many strict rules including a detailed schedule. One night the elders with whom I shared a room turned off the lights at the scheduled time, but it was too light to go to sleep. One elder had the bright idea of sharing ghost stories and legends from where we grew up. As we swapped yarns, one elder's face (Elder Palmer) changed in appearance; it took the shape and coloration of the shadow from my youth.

Stuttering, I told Elder Palmer that his face reminded me of the devil. Of course everyone was curious, so I told about the shadow and his offer. As I tell the story, a being of shadow leaves Elder Palmer, walks towards my bed, pointing at me. I jump to the light switches and turn them all on, but the spirit didn't disappear. My mind racing, I remember a rarely used exorcism ritual my dad had taught me. I raised my arm to the square, and as I recited the words the spirit vanished. We sang some hymns to calm down then performed a blessing on that apartment.

I also had a roommate at one time who out of the blue told me of a similar happening to him in the MTC. He had no knowledge of my past, so it couldn't have been a cold reading. Steve's description matched every detail from my own experience. After a little prodding, Steve told me exactly which room of which dormitory in the MTC this happened in. As luck would have it, he went through his possession in the very room where I performed my exorcism (Steve left the MTC just two weeks before I arrived). Again, I only heard Steve's story years after completing my mission.

I didn't lose my mind - I have it backed up on a disk ... somewhere


#19 spooksareus

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 11:04 AM

quote=Axman,Nov 26 2005, 11:58 PM]
I don't feel that anyone who is mentally disturbed in any way means they are necessarily evil. Some perfectly sane people were/are evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

But that is the question.
Can a perfectly sane person be evil. Dont we refer to the evil they do as "sick"?
(I'm not looking for the legal definition here.)
When we talk about serial killers and megalomaniacs, do we talk about them with pity or revulsion?
If you can, please name me at least one "sane" evil person in history..... :Wall:

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#20 spooksareus

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 11:09 AM

I do believe in Satan as an actual person.  I believe I have seen him under various circumstances.

The first time was when I was about 5 years old.  I noticed a shadow on my wall without anything to cause it.  This shadow would play and talk with me.  Over the course of years I got to know him better, and I could see his coloration.  Strangely I never had a name for him until I was 9.

On the fateful afternoon, the shadow was talking a bit weird (but in its usual voice).  It told me he could make sure my family would never want for money again, if I would only promise to live with him forever.  I knew of only one being who couldmake such an offer, so asked the shadow to aknowledge his identity.  Having been turned down, he got angry and started shouting.  He told me that he made the same offer to my dad years ago (and mentioned the obscure town my father was born and raised).  He told me he would place the same curse on me as he did my dad: that he would haunt my posterity until one of them said yes.  He then slammed the door shut, but I was able to pry it open and run downstairs.  As I was running through the kitchen, I overheard my dad telling my brothers a tale I'd never heard: when my dad was a lad he wrestled with Satan!  I was too scared to say anything to my family, so I continued running until I reached a friend's house.  For months this evil entity tormented me (he even once stabbed me in the back with a long blade - I still have the scar).  At the end of the summer, my family moved to a different state and I didn't see that shadow for a season.

My next encounter happened in the Pratt Building of the Missionary Training Center (MTC) in Provo, Utah when I was 19.  The MTC has many strict rules including a detailed schedule.  One night the elders with whom I shared a room turned off the lights at the scheduled time, but it was too light to go to sleep.  One elder had the bright idea of sharing ghost stories and legends from where we grew up.  As we swapped yarns, one elder's face (Elder Palmer) changed in appearance; it took the shape and coloration of the shadow from my youth.

Stuttering, I told Elder Palmer that his face reminded me of the devil.  Of course everyone was curious, so I told about the shadow and his offer.  As I tell the story, a being of shadow leaves Elder Palmer, walks towards my bed, pointing at me.  I jump to the light switches and turn them all on, but the spirit didn't disappear.  My mind racing, I remember a rarely used exorcism ritual my dad had taught me.  I raised my  arm to the square, and as I recited the words the spirit vanished.  We sang some hymns to calm down then performed a blessing on that apartment.

I also had a roommate at one time who out of the blue told me of a similar happening to him in the MTC.  He had no knowledge of my past, so it couldn't have been a cold reading.  Steve's description matched every detail from my own experience.  After a little prodding, Steve told me exactly which room of which dormitory in the MTC this happened in.  As luck would have it, he went through his possession in the very room where I performed my exorcism (Steve left the MTC just two weeks before I arrived).  Again, I only heard Steve's story years after completing my mission.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Now that is scary as hell......

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#21 MoonChild

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 11:11 AM

There are lots, Spook. It is the intention that makes a person evil.
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#22 spooksareus

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 11:38 AM

Like who Moon?
And where does this evil intent come from?
People have free will, is willfulness at the bottom of it all?

People often say "they must be crazy to have done(such and such)..."
I am talking about people evil to the core, and the possibility that evil is disease.
And if it is, can it be cured? How do you get close enough to something so repelant to treat it?

I'm sure Hitler didn't see himself as an evil person.
Sadam doesn't aknowledge his acts as evil wrong doing.
How can evil change if it won't recognize itself?

Huge corperations do a great many evils to make a profit.
What about gruop evil?

:Wall:

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#23 aloha_spirit

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 12:16 PM

I believe in the devil and that he has a large number of fallen angels following him (the New Testament says a third of the hosts of heaven). They may tempt us, but we have our agency up until the point we are possessed (the Bible also says we'll never be tempted above our ability to withstand it).

A lot of bad things in this world are the results of people's own personalities and bad choices. No mortal is pure good or pure evil.

I didn't lose my mind - I have it backed up on a disk ... somewhere


#24 spooksareus

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 12:20 PM

We are still off topic here.
The question is can we define evil as a mental disorder?

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#25 spooksareus

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 05:47 PM

Have you ever noticed that evil people will judge
others who they percieve to be a threat as evil?
Recently we have been uh... entertained with the
"blame game" tactic in politics.
Deflecting responsibility for the wrong they have
done is a common trait of malignant narcicism.....

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#26 Justa

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 07:50 PM

I just spent over an hour the other night discussing with somebody whether Evil=Intelligence, which I know there is another thread on in here somewhere.


Here is my take on evil. (Probably going to raise a few eyebrows, but that's the nice thing about this forum, you can state your opinion and have it generate discussion)

Evil is a concept created by man. Humans naturally like to categorize and classify things. Somewhere along the line we said, "OK, if you do this, it's bad, and if you do that, it's good" Then we said, if you do something really bad, it's evil. You can't have evil without good, and vice versa. But they are just classifications of acts.

Whether or not something is evil depends on which country the act is perpretated in, who is doing it, and who is judging. According to the bible, from what I know of it, "thou shalt not kill". It's one of the basic commandments. So if somebody goes out and knowingly kills somebody, it's evil. So we put them on trial, and sentence them to death. The person who throws the switch, pulls the lever, injects the drugs, releases the gas, is not considered evil. However, if you get down to the nitty gritty, they just knowingly took a life, which is against the commandments, and therefore is evil. But we don't consider that person to be evil.

There are some cultures where they are allowed "Honor Killing". In their culture, that is acceptable. But in our culture (N America) it's not acceptable. So is it evil? By our standards yes, but by theirs, no.

The concept of what is evil is based on morals, religion, ethics, and the views of society.


If somebody has a mental disorder and does not understand the consequences of their acts, are they an evil person? I do not think so personally, although I have no way to substiate it either way.
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#27 aloha_spirit

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:43 PM

Justa, I agree with you to a point - morals vary from culture to culture and from person to person. However there are some basic morals which span across 90+% of all cultures, such as thou shalt not murder.

I didn't lose my mind - I have it backed up on a disk ... somewhere


#28 spooksareus

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 09:09 PM

Or fondle thy nieghbors wife... :)

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#29 evad_83647

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:20 AM

I'm of the opinion we do a lot of judging in this society of ours. I tend to agree with Justa. A person is evil or good depending on the observer.

We make fun of backwoods people for having no branches on their family tree, Where did Adam and Eves sons get their wives?

We have decided that things that hurt others is bad and things that don't hurt others is good. If I stole a candy bar I hurt the merchants profit and directly him. If I coveted his wife, I have also hurt him. So that is bad. If I paid for the candy bar, I helped him and if his wife coveted me?

Back to the point Spooks keep trying to bring up, no there is no evil gene, it is just what we have come to accept as normal behaviour. What is normal depends on a lot of factors.

In the Phillipines it is ok to cook cats and eat them. Here the SPCA would be all over you. Some cultures used to practice cannibilism, Jeffery Dahmer tried it in the States. Hard to imagine in another place and time he would be considered normal.

Hitler wasn't the first to try to exterminate a race and he probably won't be the last. If you go back to the earlier parts of our recorded history when one group of people took over another every male above the age of 10-12 was killed. The women were raped and seeded by the conquring armies. They reasoned that they didn't want any heros to have to worry about later. It was just the spoils of war. Nothing sinister about their thinking, unless you happened to be in the villiage they took over. Of course you would have done the same to them if you were the victor.

I see us legislating morality to the extreme. We are giving away our freedoms in exchange for a small piece of peace of mind. For example The law that was passed about hate crimes. If you killed someone you should be tried because you killed someone, not because that person was gay or black or purple.

The one that gets me is the seatbelt law. You are protecting me from myself. And if I don't buckle up you are going to punish me for being stupid. Having said that I always buckle up because that is my choice, but it should be my choice, not yours. This law was instituted because of the insurance industries claim that if everyone buckled up the insurance rates would go down because less people would die in accidents. The states were getting a lot of pressure from the electorate about the high insurance rates. Boom we have a law.

Now we find insurance rates have actually increased because it takes more money to heal someone who has been seriously injured than it did to bury them. We are talking people who lay comatose for years with little or no chance at having a normal life. I choose to wear seatbelts but not because it is the law. I know a lot of people breaking the law because they refuse to wear them. They are fined and points are taken away from their license after the second or thrid time, who are they hurting?

The insurance industry also convinced state senators after the rates failed to go down with the seatbelt thing that there were too many uninsured motorists. Now it is a law we have to have insurance. Man I'd love to be in an industry where the state has made laws that guarantee me an income. Insurance companies are pure evil.lol

I don't totally disagree with the last law. It does help to protect me but what about the people who can't afford insurance, it hurts them. Imagine working at a fast food resturant making minimum wage you have a choice in your budget between food and insurance, which one isn't going to be paid? Now we have an evil person who refuses to buy insurance.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#30 spooksareus

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:34 PM

I dont recal bringing up an evil gene Dave, however...why not?
I think we are getting a little simple here in the non belief
of evil.
And I think that my last post kind of alludes to it being in
the eye of the beholder.
But I don't want to discuss the petty little things that people
do to each other out of being thoughtless.
Are you really going to sit back and tell me that Hitler, Stalen &
Caligula, werent evil just mad?
They werent stealing candy bars and hurting peoples feelings ya know.
They all thought it was ok for them to do great evil in their name
for their own benifit. I don't believe any of them felt guilty or even
wrong in doing these things.
I think they may have even felt justified for crying out load.
If that isn't evil I don't know what is.

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”





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