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Never bet the devil your head


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#31 spooksareus

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:59 PM

And just because a culture believes it is ok to
kill for one reason or another doen't not make it
wrong.

Actually the most fascinating aspect of this tread is the
refusal to name evil.

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#32 evad_83647

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 01:31 PM

There is a lot of places this could lead Spooks.
All I am saying is we all are products of our environment. If you allow a spoiled child to continue to be a spoiled child he will become a grown up more concerned about his or her own welfare than those of others. And when some one has an ego that big, and comes from weatlh and privledge, he or she is going to want to control things that affect their welfare. Hence this is where most of our world leaders come from.

Hitler was different, he did not come from wealth, but he was a spoiled child, his mom was afraid to punish him because he scared her. Consquently he did not learn that he couldn't always have his way.

If I remember correctly he thought his dad was a jew. Which futher influenced how he came to hate jews. He found out pretty early in life that using peoples fears he could make them do his bidding.

Was Hitler born evil, no. His experiences shaped his thinking into believing he could do as he pleased with no consequences. You have to remember the time he was raise in. He experienced WWI, the West was raping Germany. You here about our side of the story because we won and we wrote it. You don't hear about what we did to Germany after WWI because they lost. I think after WWII we were more compasionate but how many Germans did we kill to get to that point. How many Americans did we send off to their deaths. We did it out of fear. He did it out of hate. Does that make either one of us truly evil?

Spooks, Have you ever travelled abroad? You see a whole different world.

P.S. I'm glad to see you all fired up about this, My Nefarious little creature.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#33 spooksareus

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 02:34 PM

Yes I have traveled abroad and have seen lots of things.
However just because a person has a personality disorder
doesn't make him not evil.
On the contrary, I feel that it is a neccessary component of
an evil person.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates accomplishments, talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);

Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;

Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);
Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);

Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favourable priority treatment;

Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;

Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others;

Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly;

Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.


This goes far beyond most spoiled children I think.

I agree that it seems to be childish thinking, but I'm not letting the parents take the wrap for this.
If we are to believe in free will than we also need to consider what it is that makes some people turn their personal adversity into the means to mold a strength of character and moral caring that makes up a great leader or a saint, and what makes some people twisted into the shape of a monster.
Environment is not enough.
There have been studies (speaking of genes) on people who were adopted out as new borns into
lovely well adjusted homes. Their birth parents (one or both of them) were criminals.

When the adopted son of one paricular couple grew up to become a burgler and a rapist, the the adopted mother was beside herself and couldn't understand why the child she loved and raised as her own would turn out that way.
Being an achedemic, she thought to do some research into the background of her sons birth parents and found out that the birth father was serving time in prison for rape and burglery.
Not only that, he was a multiple offender who she found out went to prison nearly 20 years before for raping the woman who was her adopted son's birth mother, and that her son was in fact the result of that rape.

Bad seed? I don't know, but many studies done on the criminal brain have made note of certain parts of
the brain of career criminals working differently than a "normal" persons brain. (Abby Normal :hug: )
Sick? Evil? Yes, I believe they can be used in the same sentence....

Edited by spooksareus, 24 January 2006 - 02:38 PM.

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#34 evad_83647

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 02:39 PM

You invited us to go this direction when you included psycology in your subheading.

The human psyche is an amazing thing. We have two parts of our brain.
A) The lizard brain. This is were our survival genes are stored. In order for us to be more than lizards we have to survive first.

This part of our brain controls our instincts. We will do what we need to do to survive, it is our basic animalistic nature.

:hug: Our intelectual brains. This is we we have devoloped thought processes that enable us to make tools and other things to survive easier. Bottom line it is all about survival.

Once we have our survival needs met we can start to wonder about other things. But if our survival needs are not met we will regress to the point where that is all we are concerned with.

Have you ever been so hungry that all you could think about was getting food? That's how our mind works.

Maslow's heirarchy of needs explains it pretty well. If we need to kill to survive we will. A real or percieved threat against our survival will make us do things we wouldn't ordinarily do.

It is easy to relate how someone who feels their survival is threatened can commit mass genocide. I can relate lots of expamles of people who have done this and are doing it this day. George Bush feels our survival as we know it is threatened so we are in Iraq and Afghanistan killing and being killed.

Look at the recent news reports from Africa. We personify Hitler as the supreme evil, what he did pales in comparrison. Stalin was much worse.

Stalin is an easier subject to study than Hitler because everything wasn't destroyed in a war and rewritten to suit our needs. Stalin killed ten times more people in his purges than Hitler did in his camps. Why dodn't we refer to him as the supreme evil one?

Yes I think there may be some crossed connections in the wiring. What you just decribed is the classic bi-polar description. High highs, low lows.

Edited by evad_83647, 24 January 2006 - 02:44 PM.

Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#35 spooksareus

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 02:51 PM

I do include him on my list of supreme evil precisely because
of his narcissistic paranoia. Stalen was not a smart guy, but he
had a genius for survival at the cost of a nation.
Pure nasty evil,
But then I think of evil as being incredibly stupid so it is no great
stretch for me to view that kind of survival instinct as stupid.
It serves no purpose towards a greater good and only seeks to
preserves one inane, inadaquate person.....

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#36 evad_83647

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 02:53 PM

On the other side of this coin you have pure genious, like Einstein.
He helped to create the atomic bomb, how many people did that kill?

Which countries have you been too?
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#37 spooksareus

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 03:00 PM

I do include him on my list of supreme evil precisely because
of his narcissistic paranoia. Stalen was not a smart guy, but he
had a genius for survival at the cost of a nation.
Pure nasty evil,
But then I think of evil as being incredibly stupid so it is no great
stretch for me to view that kind of survival instinct as stupid.
It serves no purpose towards a greater good and only seeks to
preserves one inane, inadaquate person.....


Stalen also rewrote his own history.
He had a fictionalized movie made about himself
and had pictures and film modified to exclude certain
persons from his history.

On the other side of this coin you have pure genious, like Einstein.
He helped to create the atomic bomb, how many people did that kill?

Which countries have you been too?


Killed lots of people.

France, Ireland, Holland, Italy, Mexico (<all over), Jamaica, Canada (<all over), Central America(<all over)
all the states in the USA save Maine.

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#38 evad_83647

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 03:01 PM

I think of people who can do those things as incredibly smart. The problem is they feed thier own paranoia. And they always have people in key places which also helps them to feed their fears.

This is why I don't want to be in power. I'd rape, pillage and plunder at will. Then everyone would be trying to get what I had and I'd have to start exterminating people. lol
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#39 spooksareus

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:37 PM

Sure, some of them are cunning enough some are merely
so willful that they manipulate others through fear.
Subjecting others to your will for it's own sake is a pretty
evil thing to do.
You don't have to be smart to do that, you just have to be
a bully.
And anyone willing to build an empire on fear and manipulation
in order to hide their own shortcomings is evil.

Edited by spooksareus, 24 January 2006 - 04:38 PM.

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#40 evad_83647

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 04:45 AM

First off I like George Bush. I know you are a liberal so we can skip that argument. (I hated Clinton). lol

He is very adept on building on people fears. That is why we went into Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't believe GW is evil. I do believe he has an agenda. His goal, whether you agree with it or not is to make the world of tommorow safer. Did he accomplish that? Only time will tell. I believe he also has underlying interests, but I don't believe those were a major factor in his decision.

He is criticized for not predicting 911 with sketchy intteligence, he is criticized for going into Iraq with sketchy intelligence. He can't win. lol

I do not believe Osama Bin Laden is evil. He has his own agenda and will do what he feels is nessecary to acheive his goals. He can't go head to head with us so he fights us in different ways. Not too much different than the Colonials did to the Brits in our revolution.

Bush has been compared to Hitler, do you think that is fair? So far he is not purging our society. To my knowledge he is not rounding up the arabs and placing them in concentration camps around america and gassing them.

I think if we don't get exterminated by that comet in 2012 history will be kind to Mr. Bush. If we win the war on Terrorism history will not be kind to Mr. Bin Laden. If he wins it will be.

Evil as in beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Bush can justify everything he does, Bin Laden can too, so could Saddam, and Hitler and Stalin. So can you and so can I.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#41 spooksareus

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 11:38 AM

Are you saying that you believe evil does not exist?
Evil deeds can only be seen as reasonable by
the evil people who perpetrate them.
I see evil as a sort of disease,
So it cannot be rejected because of denial.
When my grandmother was dying from cancer
we could have called it by another name but what
would that change? It was still deadly and frightening
and painfull.
After I fell off of the roof I kept trying to go
right back to work as if I was the same.
When it took me 2 hours to do a bit of plumbing
that would have taken me 15 minutes before the
fall I had to realize that I was not the same.
Some things just are what they are.
And just by saying that people like Stalin and Hitler
were not evil because they believed in what
they were doing does not make it so.
Thir deeds were evil deeds and their motivations
were selfish and of no service to anyone but themselves.
They both cast a malignancy on the world.

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#42 aloha_spirit

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 01:10 PM

Dave did not say that Hitler and Stalin were not evil, just that in their minds they could justify their actions.

I'm 85% conservative. I voted for Bush both times. I did not vote for Clinton in his first term and was out of country for his re-election. Clinton was very charismatic and times were good in his presidency; I don't know how much could be attributed to Clinton's leadership vs natural cycles.

Dubya's presidency was forever changed by 9/11. We will never know what kind of peace-time president he would have made. We HAD to invade Afghanistan in retaliation. The case for overthrowing Sadaam was not so clear. Sadaam did in fact commit genocide and was an evil man. But I don't think Sadaam was a major threat to the U.S. or our allies. The war in Iraq could have waited until Afghanistan was stable.

We the people want to be safe. Dubya's trying to give us that, but probably is breaking laws in his methodology (phone taps with a warrant?). His intentions are good, so I wouldn't call him evil.

I didn't lose my mind - I have it backed up on a disk ... somewhere


#43 evad_83647

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 02:10 PM

Thanks Aloha.
Spooks I'm trying to think of anything in this world I would consider truly evil. I met a few people who seemed to have no decency in them but when the chips were down they did good things.

I've also met some pretty decent people who have done horrible things.

There are a lot of people in this world who wouldn't give a second thought about taking anothers life. I relate it to greed,control, and ignorance. If that is your definition of evil then yes there are tons of evil people.

My definition of evil would be more limited; you do terrible things with no motive. There might be some people in the world who like to watch people die just for the fun of it, but it wasn't Hitler or Stalin they were driven by superegos and greed.

I think there are varying factors. If you draw a line it would extend from Pure good- Pure Evil. Not too many people would be at either end of that scale.

If you inserted numbers on our scale +100 = pure good, 0= Neutral, -100= Pure Evil: I would be +61 on the scale. lol
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#44 spooksareus

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 07:34 PM

I'm not sure why George is on this thread at all guys.
Perhaps he does believe 100% that the end justifies the
means.
However, I also assume he thinks he is doing what is
right for his people not for his own butt.
Niether Hitler nor Stalin nor Caligula had any such high
mindedness.
Is it not writen that the love of money (greed) is the root
of all evil? Also tearing a nation apart
because some fascist dictators "supper ego" tells him it is
his right to do so is a riddiculously selfish, narcissistic and
evil act.

The btk serial killer felt that it was all in a
ys work to bind, torture and kill his "projects" yet he was
a church going man. He is also an evil man.

It takes an absolute corruption of the soul to do these types of
evil things.
I am in no way saying that good people can't do evil things
and bad people can't do good things. That would be idiotic.
But the thread is not about that, it is about evil and the idea
that it is a malady of the human psyche.
Most of us do rotton things that we later regret (hopefully) it is
part of the human growth process.

And that is my point, if a person feels no remorse for bad or
even evil deeds than there is no room for human growth.
Instead a monster likely takes its place.

Many of the worlds greatest warriors have felt remorse for the
killing on the battlefield even though they may also have felt
it a necessary "evil".

"It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about, nowadays, saying things against one behind one's back that are absolutely and entirely true." -Oscar Wilde “The Picture of Dorian Gray”


#45 evad_83647

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 03:15 AM

The bible says you can ask for and recieve forgivness, maybe Hitler and Stalin are in heaven right now laughing at us.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?




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