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Possibly a new theory?


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#46 The White Knight

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 06:17 PM

Count me in. :lol: Oh, and I just think that the imprint idea is pretty solid. It doesn't necessarily explain everything, though.

#47 evad_83647

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 08:32 PM

Why doesn't it work? Look for the flaws. We can modify and improve the same basic theory. Once we can't find any more faults with it then we have a workable theory we can start trying to disprove. Hopefully a bunch of GV'rs will jump on board and tell us why it can work or how it could.

You guys already have my basic theory, what is wrong with it. Scrutinize it, tear it apart, if it doesn't work for us it won't work for anyone else. Make me explain why I think it works, again if we can't make others beleive our theory, we don't have much of a theory.

My basic theory is everything is energy; this leaves room for Ghosts, god, esp, everything. My improved theory is there are three forms of energy, not two. Positive, negative and neutral. The neutral force would be the most predominate or the largest force. My third theory piggybacked on those two is the big small theory. Basically it states everything is made up from something smaller and combines to make something bigger. This would mean our entire universe could be but an atom in the next higher plane of existence and our atoms are entire universes to the next plane down.

This would make the universe not only horizontal but verticle as well. This would also means there would be trillions of billions of universes similar to ours. Imagine if our entire universe was but one atom in a grain of sand on a beachfull of sand.

I can expalin how this can be without out getting to technological.

Or we can just limit ourselfs to ghosts and how they exist. I think we need a bigger theory though to be accepted as anything other than crackpots. We can include ghosts, and gods, and spirits in our larger theory though. We can explain everything except how the universe actually started and why there is a place for us to ask, "Why are we here?"

I haven't com up with a good answer to that, neither has anyone else. lol Just a note on that. the universe had matter and energy before the big bang theory, so even if it is a cyclic universe it does not answer why we are here or how the universe started. The big bang theory is alos being rapidly discredited because so many things do not work in the theory.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#48 The White Knight

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 02:39 AM

Hmm... I'll look for flaws as we go. I'm really good at playing Devil's Advocate. :) Well, one of the reasons I don't give the creationist theory much credit is that according to many religions, life is a test, right? God gave us free will and if we're good we get to live with him again. There's only one problem with that theory... According to these same religions, God is omnipresent, omniscent, and omnipotent. Therefore, he knows everything. Meaning, despite the fact that we have free-will, he will still know what we are going to do at any given moment, and would automatically know what we were going to do with our lives before they had ever really begun. So there wouldn't be a point. The likelyhood of a fatherly omniscent being who decided to create the world as a test to see if his 'people' were worthy of existing in the same form as him just doesn't seem to make sense. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not here to bash religion. I'm simply pointing out what I see as flaws in the creationist theory. There is also Evad's aforementioned flaw in the Big Bang theory, which is that even if all the matter in the universe was in one big ball and exploded, where did the matter come from? Or the energy to produce the explosion? I have to admit, this is one where I am definitely stumped. No ideas whatsoever. The bg problem is that whatever explanation is presented, it has to explain where energy and matter came from, but if it does that, where did whatever CREATED the energy and matter come from? It's a vicious cycle. Every theory will end with "Yes, but what happened BEFORE that?"

And now we know why many scientists and most philosophers are 100% nuts. They can't explain their own existence.

Fun stuff, eh?

#49 evad_83647

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 03:20 AM

and we are diving right in with them. Did anybody think to look and see if there is any water in the pool?

White Knight, I have presented the very same argument against god. If he is truly omnipresent he is in the begining, middle and end. He already knows whos is going to heaven and who is going to hell. You are correct it doesn't matter what we do, our final destination will be the same.

I've been reading a recent translation from the original Hebrew Text of the bible. We are way off the mark on what god is. (according to this translation). The author says the Hebrew language is active and the english language is static, so it litterally can not be translated word for word. It has to be translated meaning for meaning. I will tell you I have not read a lot of this new translation but what I have read tells me if there is a god we have misunderstood him completely.

It starts off saying god is light (energy), we are part of the light (energy), from the light (energy), we came and to the light (energy) we shall return. This definition belies more of a collective conscious in which collectively we form god.

You have heard of orbs on GV if you spent much time in any of the threads. Why can't we have billions of billions of orbs interacting (in present day, not future). They will have the knowledge of the past, but to gain more knowledge they have to send a representive in. To gain as much knowledge as possible they will have to send a lot of represenitives. Maybe this is what our soul is. Maybe ghosts are just waiting at the bus stop to go report in what they have learned. Actually this isn't my idea but was relayed to me be a very convicing conversation I had with someone else. I didn't do it justice though.

My imagination, as good as it is, cannot fathom how it all started. Logic would dictate that it had to start somwhere, sometime. Even if there is a collective conscious design team, they had to come from somewhere. Maybe Grim can shed some light on that issue.

Our theory does not rule out ghosts and god though, that was my point. We will have to tackle them individually. I kinda think that ghosts and god go hand in hand, if you have one you should have the other, they either both exist in some context or neither exist. I am definitaly middle of the road on ghosts and god. Read some of Moon Childs posts.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#50 The White Knight

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 04:25 AM

Again, I agree with you Evad. I tend to shy away from the traditional Christian view of God, but if you can count a collective conscious, such as is suggested in my original theory, as a being, then I concede the that there is every possibility of there being a God. I wouldn't put it down as the Original Creator, but playing a big part in some other cosmic mystery? Absolutely.

#51 evad_83647

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 01:26 PM

So we are agreed on the "possibility" of some form of life after death.

In my viewpoint that life or entity would have to be energy. Now we can get a little strange. Based on ghost reports and other phenomona, there is the "possibility" for this energy to interact. I do not believe in mass hallucinations, with so many people claiming to see ghosts there has to be an underlying reason. Some of the sightings could be explained away as residual enegry imprints, but not all. Now we have to coin a new term, "Intelligent Energy".

"Intelligent Energy" can explain a lot of things from ghosts to ESP, to Visions all the way up to a supreme force. I see two ways we can have intelligent energy; one would be humans in dreamlike states emit and control it; the second one would be after death the spirit continues to live. It interacts with people who are sensitive enough to tune into their wavelengths.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#52 Grim Undertakings

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 02:08 PM

I go to work for a few days, and now I'm falling behind! :D

To get this thread a wee bit back on track, I think it is safe to say that ghosts are energy of some sort. Whether they are their own energy unit (that we do, or do not, have knowledge of) that manipulates other forms of energy, or whether they are energy, as we know it, themselves, I have no idea.
And now for some innocent and respectful boat-rocking: I think ghosts and spirits are the same thing. I don't believe that they have anything to do with God. Often when I bring up the topic of ghosts with people they will say to me, "But how can there be ghosts? When you die you go to heaven or hell." This may be the case, and whatever you believe in is okay with me. I have no problem with religion.
What does baffle me though is how, since almost the beginning of recorded time, people have seen ghosts. Since then, there has been many, many accounts of these things. And still we really have no idea what they are! After all this time, we either just personally accept them, or discredit and ignore the phenomena. People have been seeing people who are supposed to be dead! I, myself, find this quite amazing.
Now, nobody has any solid evidence of their existence. People have some really good evidence, but I wouldn't say it's solid. Solid evidence to me would change the world somewhat and maybe our way of thinking.
As for orbs, I'm still running around in a circle and screaming. What I gather, is that orbs do exist. There has been less than more of them documented. What they are, I have no idea. I personally believe that they are ghosts travelling in their easiest and simplest form. Why run when you can walk? I'm speculating that the laws of gravity do not apply to them. Most things in zero gravity will form a ball (jello or water for example). However, if they are energy that we have knowledge of, they would have to abide by the rules of nature that we no of, and therefore gravity would have to apply to them. Unless, of coarse, they are manipulating gravity.
I know we all have our own opinions. And I know, what ghosts may be in their entirety, is all speculation. I respect all of this. However, I can't say that I believe that the imprint theory is solid. There are imprints of ghosts. This I cannot explain, and I find it fascinating that they are somehow stamped into space and time. I'm surprised no one has approached Stephen Hawking about this frequent occurence.
I just don't think that it is solid because I've never heard of anyone being able to interact with an imprint. An imprint is, by definition, a mark or pattern. Which is what these particular sightings are reported as displaying. It just doesn't explain the interaction and intelligence factor.
I'm in no way trying to be disrespectful here or a jerk. I just thought I'd bring up a point, because afterall, it just is speculation. Apologies in advance if I have offended! :( :) :)

#53 Grim Undertakings

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 02:25 PM

So we are agreed on the "possibility" of some form of life after death.

In my viewpoint that life or entity would have to be energy. Now we can get a little strange. Based on ghost reports and other phenomona, there is the "possibility" for this energy to interact. I do not believe in mass hallucinations, with so many people claiming to see ghosts there has to be an underlying reason. Some of the sightings could be explained away as residual enegry imprints, but not all. Now we have to coin a new term, "Intelligent Energy".

"Intelligent Energy" can explain a lot of things from ghosts to ESP, to Visions all the way up to a supreme force. I see two ways we can have intelligent energy; one would be humans in dreamlike states emit and control it; the second one would be after death the spirit continues to live. It interacts with people who are sensitive enough to tune into their wavelengths.


I agree. The only part I see as being too complex, is the emitting and controlling of dreamlike states.
Keep it coming everyone, because this is one excellent thread. :)

#54 evad_83647

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 04:06 PM

Grim, Have you ever had a premonition? I beleive I have or a lot of real strange coincidences.

In my dream state I am places I've never been before seeing things that haven't hapened yet. I don't think I'm fully tuned into the right frequency because I don't see the whole picture, just bits and pieces of it. Then whatever I saw happens in real life and it makes sense.

This is why I tend to think it is possible to emit images from our dreams and interact with orbs or even other live beings. I've even had eperiences where more than one person was dreaming the same dream at the same time. It's really weird to say to someone you saw in a dream, you know what I dreamed? and they say yes I was there, remember? I don't pretend to know the meaning of dreams or whether my experiences are just coincidences.

I do know that dreams are powerful things and I feel we should include them in our discussions. To omit them without fully exploring the possibilites could be like having a car with no engine. It looks pretty but won't go very far. We can discuss each individual thing and tear it apart and we should.

I think no one will take any offence to things we are talking about since it is all speculation, but people do not always read the entire thread so it would probably be good to keep reminding others who might happen to read the thread we are only speculating and surmising. As for me I want you to prove me wrong. If you can't and White Night can't and others can't we might be on to something. On the other hand if you can prove me wrong or anyone else can we can work on other areas.

You need to tell me why dreams can't be included so I can argue why they should be.

As for the formation of orbs, here is my take. It has nothing to do with gravity. What shape is the earth? Is it subject to Gravitational forces? What shape is the sun? Is it subject to gravitational forces? What shape is a rain drop? Is it subject to gravitational forces? What shape do we imagine an atom to be?

Energy is not mass free accordig to the people who study this stuff. There will be a infintesimal amount of mass in every ray of sunshine. Mass will naturally form a globe shape if the energy in it is stronger than the mass. Have you ever taken a picture of the sun and seen a string of dots in the developed picture? You blame the optics for a bad pic, look closer, the lense has refracted the sunbeam and magnified it. You just took a picture of pure energy. The beam is not solid it comes in pulses or little orbs.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#55 evad_83647

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 04:36 PM

You get 186,000 of these little suckers hitting the earth every second and multiply that by the trillions of light beams and it is easy to see how the sun can warm the earth.



Our spirit orb would be basically the same thing except it doesn't have the energy of the sun behind it. So it just kind of floats around, if there were no gravity it would float off into space, but the earth does have gravity and the orb has infintesimal mass so they kinda stick close.

Sorry about breaking this up into two posts, had some urgent matters tha needed to be dealt with. lol

Remember none of this is proven fact, speculation, speculation, speculation!!!
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#56 Grim Undertakings

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 10:02 PM

I wonder though about people seeing a ghost, telling someone about it, that someone then shows them a picture of their grandfather, and the person identifies the picture as the ghost they saw. How would we be able to create such a coincidence?
Or many people, who have never met, reporting at different times, that they saw a ghost in a museum. The musuem curator tells each person that other people have seen the same thing. How would all of these people be able to conjure up the same image? :clap:


I don't mind us discussing dreams, I just don't think projected dreams are ghosts. However, I have heard of people's accounts that a ghost they saw came to them later on in a dream. I don't know how or why this could happen. I also don't know what dreams are. But if a projected dream is a ghost, and people have had ghosts come to them in their dreams, this would mean that you could project yourself into someone's head. I've never heard of anybody being able to do this. If this has happened, then I still don't think that it's a possibility that projected dreams are ghosts because of what I've speculated about above.
With the amount of people who sleep, I think ghosts would be more abundant if they were projected dreams. I think they'd be everywhere. Ghost encounters seem to occur in limited settings and usually in a defined location.
Jumping to orbs, the earth, and the sun are subjected to gravitational forces. That is why they are that shape. There is zero gravity in space, but all of the factors zipping around in the universe subjects the earth, and the sun, and all of the other bodies to gravity. Raindrops are that shape because they are plummeting towards the earth, quickly, with gravity pushing down upon them.
I've never had a premonition. They sound possible to me, but I think they are a seperate phenomena from ghosts. And I've heard of two people having the same dream before but I've always chalked this up to coincidence.


One last quick thought: how could a projected dream throw something, move something, or grab you?

#57 evad_83647

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 03:45 AM

Ok perhaps you misunderstood my intention. I think there are several possibilities for ghost sightings.
1 residual energy could explain some but not all of them.
2 Dreams could also explain some but not all of them.
I tend to think the phenomena of ghosts are more than one type of sighting.

We have orbs which are very docile little spirits just floating around in there little cacoon.

We have shadow people we see out of the corner of our eye.

We have friendly images of grandma or grandpa.

We have scary images of mass murderers and other evil doers.

Then we have the more powerful spirits Angels and Demons.

From the threads in GV it seems that the only spirits that can do more than scare you or make you happy are in the Angels and Demons category. These are the ones who have the power to push you or what ever they do.

I must stop and profess my innocence, I only have this impression from what others have been saying. My only possible experience of a spirit strong enough to do this was at the indian graveyard where something struck the trunk of my car with enough force to bottom out my shocks.

We were in the middle of a clearing and six of us experienced it, there was nothing in the clearing such as a branch that could have fallen on the car and there was no damage to the car. I did not see any indian spirits though I imagined them/him. We didn't stick around to see if he was going to appear. Before you ask no I do not have any pics. lol

Am I convinced it was a spirit? No. Do I have any other reasonable explanation? No.

Could someone have had telepathic powers and direct that kind of energy at us? Possibly.

It wasn't a meteor, it wasn't a rock, it wasn't a branch.

Could someone have been dreaming and do something to cause it? It was the middle of the day where we were so probably unlikely. Do I think it was residual energy? No.

Through what I do know didn't happen I can narrow it down to I haven't got a clue. lol

From reading here in GV I am getting some ideas. Ghosts are generally thought of as having some unfinished business, whether it is pointing out who killed them or staying around to make sure there loved ones are ok.

Grim if you want to see an indian spirit, I feel he is still there guarding the sacred ground. As for myself I have never been back and never intend to go back.lol nervously.

Back to my point, there is many possible answers to ghosts, or energies.

Dreams interact in ways we cannot even imagine. There are documented cases of radio and television signals lingering in the atmosphere long after the original broadcast. And then there are stuff that happens that these two cannot explain. This is why I'm very open minded on this subject. I still think we can boil it down to the basic nature of energy though.

A Demon or Angel would naturally be able to tap into more energy and be a stronger spirit. We would have varying degrees of spirits just as we have different strength humans. Some people can use there minds more effectivley, some can use their muscles more effectively. I would think the same basic principle should cross over into the energy world. If there isn't ghosts to exploit this energy then we have some serious work to do. lol
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#58 Grim Undertakings

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 11:50 AM

Your car being pummelled like that is amazing. Being grabbed is one thing, but that sounds like a very unnerving experience! I'd like to check this place out someday. :ghost:
I do believe that residual energy could be the reason for some sightings. I believe that this would probably account for the imprint sightings. However, I still don't see how projected dreams could account for some. I think after all of these years (Pliny the elder was the first to write about a haunted house. Let me double check on this though), if ghosts, in part, were due to dreams, I think someone would have figured this out. It was discovered that you could control your dreams. Many people who suffer from frequent nightmares are often taught how to realize that they are dreaming when they are sleeping. This will usually lessen the terror.
I've only realized that I was dreaming once in my life. It was the opposite of a nightmare! :lol: B)
I think dream projection would be a very powerful ability. You could terrorize people. If you were a very bad person, all you would have to do would be to go to sleep.
Dreams are quite distorted. I think if they were responsible for some ghost sightings, the sightings wouldn't be of people. They would be of confusing images that were in a state of fluctuation. For example, the other night I went from Johnny Depp as a pirate, to Jim Carrey in a wetsuit, back to Johnny Depp.
This is going to make me sound a bit closed-minded: a small percentage of me only believes in the existence of angels and demons. Angels and demons are supernatural beings, which I don't believe are ghosts. My friend's dad has cautioned me on researching ghosts, because to him, ghost equals demon. So he thinks I'm looking for demons. He thinks I'm asking for trouble. Which I think is baloney.
I agree that there are people in the world who are stronger than others. But I think if there are demons and angels, this would be equivalent to us having people with super powers in life.
And the discussion continues.... :lol: :)

#59 evad_83647

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 12:41 PM

Angels and Demons are only words we have assigned them. We have humans we call psychics. They can communicate with spirits almost at will. They have learned to transition the barrrier between our realms. A lot of people beleive in psychics. The other option for this would be psychics ar self delusional and have convinced many of their believers to become self delusional as well.

I try to look at both sides of everything. If we have people that have the ability to cross over into their realm then we should have spirits with the knowledge and power to pass over in our realm. The only way a ghost could move an object is if it were in our sphere of influence. I don't even think they exist on a different plane. I think if they exist we are all in the same playing feild, so the term cross over is wrong.

Picture two football teams. They are on oppisite ends of the feild but they are still in the same feild. You don't communicate well with them because they speak a different language. Probably not a real good analogy because football teams would both be visible, but I think you can see my point.

Ok try this one.: You are in NYC, it is raining and you are huddled up in your raincoat heading for work, you pass thousands of people on the street and don't really notice anyone until someone bumps into you. People are everywhere but the only one you took time to notice was the one where your paths crossed and you had some form of communication.

Everything is part of everything, it can be no other way, that is why we have developed as we have. Dreams are part of our pshyce so they are part of everything. We cannot elminate them or anything else from our theory. We can discuss wether dreams are paranormal or not, but we cannot eliminate them from the conversation be cause our dreams affect our pshyce and our pshyce affects the things we see and believe in this world.

Dreams do not always occur whe we are asleep. Visionaries claim to have the ability to see the future. There are people who believe we can communicate with one another with just thoughts. I seem to have the ability to see things pretty accurately up to two weeks into the future. That bothers me because it would be an argument for a god where our future has already happened. It doesn't happen often enough to rule out coincidence, thank god.
Once I get there, there is somewhere else.Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

#60 Grim Undertakings

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 02:54 PM

Just as ghosts are not a factual phenomena, either is psychic ability. Both of these rely heavily on belief and personal experience. Psychics do not possess powers (for example, like someone with psychic abilities from the X-Men movies). Just because someone believes in something doesn't make it real. I strongly believe in the existence of ghosts, but my belief in them doesn't make them real.
I understand the points you are trying to make with your analogies. However, if one side of the field is in Florida, so is the other side. And even if those people spoke another language it is still understood that they are humans. When I went to New York City, I did notice all of the people around me, which is how I avoided bumping into them. Of coarse, the few people I bumped accidentily I did interact with. There were lots of people, who noticed everybody and were trying to communicate with everybody. These people were also talking to themselves and fire hydrants! :)
I don't think ghosts are all around us. I think more would be trying to communicate with us if that were the case. I think there would be more hauntings. I think we interact with some because they are either stuck here or have made the choice to stay. I think on the most part, they are trying to communicate with us.
Dreams do effect our psyche, and our psyche does effect the things in this world, but I still don't see how this could be responsible for ghosts? Everything may be a part of everything but that still doesn't answer a lot of questions. Especially those having to do with a possible afterlife.
There may also be visionaries and telepathics, but how are visions and telepathy ghosts?
Evad, you asked me to prove to you why I don't think projected dreams are ghosts of any type. Of coarse, I can't prove this, but I think I've given a pretty good argument as to why they're not. :weeee: :)




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