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Infrasound Detection & Thermal Imaging


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#1 6th

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 07:18 AM

So expensive kit usually but does anyone use Infrasound Detection & Thermal Imaging? Am looking at either finding some equipment that isnt too expensive or trying to build something myself.

Ideas or opinions?

6th

#2 the Killer

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 09:29 PM

If you alre3ady know something about infrasound detection please post it on this forum so we all can learn fron that. I know there are investigator who applying thier technical knowledge are designing their own infrasonic microphones to cath all those noises under 20 hertz per second. one of them was a guy called michael dieser from a paranormal group in New York city, USA. other person whose name is George something, i donīt remember, designede another sort of Microphone similar to the previously mentioned. This is kind of confusing cos human voice so as EVP vary from frequencies as low as 150 to 1 kH. specialy in the range between 300 and 500 we will notice higher intensity. While sound under 20 Hz. is what we know as Noise (Static and all that). The incredible thing is that if we use a special microphone to impulse human voice frequencies exdcluding infrasound and other environtment noises so as wind, water running, cars passing nearby. EVP just do not appear registered in the tape or digital file. So what? we do not know but it is certainly true that Micvrophones play a very important role in this field of research. Well... thatīs alņl from my part Hope you share your findings with us, I will be very thankful.
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#3 stoner

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 05:11 PM

don't worry 6th, we'll build one for you. Monkeyfudge found a doc about it, I got this one c/w pics.
I think it's within our capabilities to build one, I have signed semperfi onto the project to help, looking at scopes on ebay and nearly have our hands on a 14" speaker.

http://users.nexet.n...Infrasound.html

be interesting to see if anyone here build one and it worked??

I dont know what we are going to do with it though? all we will get is a response on the scope, unless you can call out and get a yes no type answering system going.
This snake cannot be captured This snake cannot be tied This snake cannot be tortured, or Hung or crucified

#4 ~Morbius~

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 10:46 PM

I haven't done much with infrasound regarding paranormal research (yet)... but- I do have quite a bit of experience (30+ years) in the fields of audio & recording engineering, sound design, and modular analog synthesizer programming. Typically, in the synth-world, infrasound equates to the term LF (or low-frequency), and is primarily used as 'control-voltages', for voltage-controlled modules (VCA's, VCF's, etc.).

But remember... at frequencies like 1hz... that's basically like thumping your fist on a table, once every second, sounding not unlike a pulse, square, or sawtooth/ramp wave, unless the dynamics are sloped-off, as in a sine or triangle wave. Detecting waves like that would depend on the dynamic-envelope, as well- I would think. A 'pop' would look like a spike on the scope... and a steady, constant smooth-sounding wave (like a sine) would just look like a raised flat-line (depending on the set scan-rate of the scope).

I regularly patch low-frequency waveforms used for control-voltages, into a scope for analysis, and simultaneously thru my studio speakers. Watching and feeling the woofers moving back and forth, and feeling the air move with each vibration is quite interesting (and usually induces a phone call from my neighbors) :Wall: . The subwoofer (more properly called an infrawoofer)(cuz 'sub' literally means slower than sound) is capable of pushing (and pulling) a surprising volume of air. When I worked in a planetarium, we used epoxy to attach front-surface mirrors to auxillary speakers... and we'd bounce lasers off those mirrors, onto the dome. So basically, the pattern of the laser-light show (in those segments) was being modulated by whatever we choose to send to those speakers... usually music, or dedicated audio tracks with specific waveforms and frequencies.

So- I can easily produce infrasound, in a multitude of waveforms... but I haven't even tried mics, specifically for that purpose. In the 'pro studio'... the engineer is normally trying to eliminate the low rumble from infrasound and low-frequency ambient sounds... like the rumble heard from trucks, trains, jackhammers, earthquakes, and the like. Those low frequencies tend to not disperse over long distances, either... and can be transferred or transmitted thru the ground, and into the building structure, which essentially makes the building into one, big transducer (just depending). Just off the top of my head, I'd think that logically, a mic with a larger diafram would tend to be more sensitive to infrasound... but, that's an unresearched guess on my part.

I guess I could set-up a test-tone, and experiment with a couple of mics, to see what kind of response I can get back. Nah... on second thought... even if successful... to go thru all that trouble on a remote location would be too much hassle... and, knowing my luck, the only mic that would work well for infrasound would require phantom power.

I can remember way, way back... a band I was working with, was trying to make their music more... emotional for live gigs, somehow. They spent quite a bit of time rearranging their tunes... which brought it closer to the goal. Then, I recalled an article which said that certain very low frequencies could cause several different effects on humans... anxiety being one, and increased 'arousal', as well. Bottom-lined... I recorded a full reel of 1/4" tape for them which had a sinewave at different lower frequencies, seperated into sections by splicing-tape. It seems to me (from memory) that I used 44hz, 22hz, 18hz, 12hz, and some which started low, and slowly would rise. If I remember correctly, I think they used several 28" speakers in custom cabinets, and several hi-wattage amps to drive them. The idea was to play certain tones during certain songs, which would hopefully enhance the emotional experience of the audience... esp. since the lower tones couldn't be heard. On one of the gigs I went to, they located the large speakers under the stage, and had a black curtain or drape to cover the space under the stage. When the tape was played, the black drapes moved along with the soundwave... and the effect seemed to be working on the audience... (but then- a lot of their material was ELP, too). :)

#5 ArtooD2

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:09 AM

I am not interested in using infra-sound to capture EVPs or for white noise. I want to use it as a debunking tool. I want a detector that I can go into a place with and tell them that they have infra-sound happening and that might be the cause of the paranormal experiences. If I can stop the infra-sound, then investigate, I will know that any paranormal experiences that I have, will have a better chance of actually being paranormal.

Does anyone know of folks using infra-sound in this way?

#6 ~Morbius~

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 02:16 PM

I am not interested in using infra-sound to capture EVPs or for white noise. I want to use it as a debunking tool. I want a detector that I can go into a place with and tell them that they have infra-sound happening and that might be the cause of the paranormal experiences. If I can stop the infra-sound, then investigate, I will know that any paranormal experiences that I have, will have a better chance of actually being paranormal.

Does anyone know of folks using infra-sound in this way?


There's a couple of ways to do this...
without a notebook computer... use a 'geophone'. Kits are available... or buy one assembled. They're used for several things... detecting earthquakes for one... but anything that is of a few hz per second... even one. Now- simple ones usually have a row of LEDs (sensitivity adjustable) to show the strength of the signal... this will just show you that 'something is making infrafrequency sounds'. But that 'something', could be a truck, several block away... a train... footsteps... random 'settling-type' noises... a lot of things. You've got to KNOW about 'sound' to 'debunk', or 'prove' anything. You won't be able to debunk anything or anyone like this... because you have to be able to find whatever is making the infrasound... to show that it's not 'paranormal', but normal. Anyway......

For a notebook (or desktop)... there are audio programs (I use GoldWave) that have spectroscopes/spectrograms. This can/will record the sound/event... and give real-time calibrated & graphed meters, which show you the exact frequencies... set it for stereo, and a spectroscope for one channel, and a spectrograph for the other... and you're pretty well covered. Oh... and these 360-degree mics.... what a rip. You can make ANY mic 360. Most are omnidirection by nature. You don't want a single (or even multiple) 360 mics... you want several highly directional mics, all patched to a multi-channel mixer. This will allow you to determin what direction the sound(s) is/are coming from. Omni 360 mics, even set up in an array, won't really help you much. Oh... you may hear the sound... so what? Where is it coming from? Get some hand-held parabolic mics... modify 'em to stay on all the time (use velcro strips on the triggers)... you can hear the sounds, then scan the area to locate the direction the sound is coming from.

Now... ya gotta have a mic connected (or two), that/which is high enough quality, and designed to pick-up frequencies in that low range (infra). Most mics are designed for work in the normal human-hearing range of 20hz-20khz... most roll-off somewhere around 10 or 12k - 20k. But there ARE mics that will cover that range for infrasound. The 'goldWave' program can be set to 'normal' range... or you can set the lower and upper limits... which both go beyond human-hearing (the program can... again... you must have a mic that will). But hell... you can just 'thump' any mic, and get that one or two or three hertz signals... footsteps will work... most infrasounds will give average mics 'something'... likely to register.

The thing is... people saying they hear words... conversations in the infrasound range.... I think that's BS, trying to fool the unknowing general public. Conversations (words spoken) inherintly are in the normal hearing range... mostly 20hz-20khz... and normally centered from 1,000hz - 8,000hz. That's the only way you can hear it, and understand it. You have to know about 'sound', recording, audio, and those properties... how sound works. A human voice, slowed down to the infrasound range, just sounds like a series of pops.... slow, individual events that you could nearly count, if you paid attention to it. Once it reaches 20hz... (that's 20 cycles per second)... it's within the normal human-hearing range, and not infrasound.

I tell ya what... right now... there is more B/S being sprewed about in the paranormal investigation field, than just about any other field. Untrained, unschooled people, supposing or guessing about stuff, they know nothing about... and having an electronics tech build 'em a simple device to spec., and selling them as some sort of 'ghost' detecting equipment. If you know any physics, H.S. science, or hell... a dab of common sense, you put a ton of scrutiny on a great deal of this stuff, before you buy into it.

I just converted an AM/FM for the "Ghostbox" hack... figured it was likely just random chance. But, when it answers every question... even trick questions... and repeats the correct answer, every time... that ain't random. However- it doesn't work all the time.... just like, when you phone someone... they don't always answer... they may not be home... or their cell phone is off... or they're already talking an don't pick-up on your call. That doesn't mean the phone is 'random'. It's working 99.9999% of the time... it's the person you're calling that's 'random', (no... I'm not saying the 'Ghostbox' is 99.9999% reliable... just saying, there has to be a spirit there... AND willing AND able to answer. It can vary from location to location, and time, to time.... like most everything else.

I'll also stick my neck out here... and say- I'm gonna spend most of my time on EVPs, and audio recording. Why? Well... how many GOOD or DECENT 100% for sure, ghost images have you ever seen on a cam and IR lighting? I have yet to see even one. I know, I know... dozens are gonna say... "Oh... we've see this, that, or the other".... ummm-hmmm.... and, millions of people believe that McDonald's serves 'GOOD FOOD'. There's a zillion inexperienced, and wishful people out there, who cannot accurately anylize images... don't understand about "Pareidolia and Apophenia".... or- the same effect that let's you 'think' you see the shape of an object in the clouds... or- makes you 'think' you hear the phone ring, or even voices... when you're in the shower. There are SO many people, who jump up and down, claiming 'ghosts!'.... and sadly, a great many of them just want attention, and the excitement, and to be the star of the minute. Sadly, they have no idea how much damage they inflict on the REAL, scientific paranormal investigators... who DO NOT CLAIM anything... until or unless that ARE 100% sure. 98% is not 100%.

Anyway... about "Pareidolia and Apophenia".... Basically- those effects are a byproduct of the human brain, which abhors randomness... and tries like hell to make anything 'random', something recognizable. That's what's got so many people (often, younger people) 'thinking' they see or hear something, when it's really nothing special. I guy in our group kept going to the same cemetery... the same headstone... and taking photos and video, saying that he was seeing 'demonic faces' on the back of that stone. What he was seeing, was nothing more than dead leaves, the wind had collected around that, and most other markers, and other objects on the ground. We removed the leaves (without telling him)... and he no longer saw anything. (Duh... ya think?).

Besides... if that much paranormal activity was REALLY going on in front of so many people... why isn't any of it on the Nightly News? 'Cause 95%-98% is total BS, or- it's completely normal... just incorrectly interpretted by novices. Thankfully, pros and researchers catch 'em before they're broadcasted.

Oh... I'm a believer... but a believer in "the real thing"... not in the B/S hype.

May the flames begin. :yawn:

#7 ArtooD2

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 03:29 PM

So, from what I understand that you said, I need to purchase a microphone that picks up sound waves in the range that I am interested in and then use a piece of software that will tell me what it is picking up. I had heard that I should be able to connect the mic to an amp and pipe that into an oscilliscope to be able to detect the waves that it is picking up. It sounds like the easier way would be to use a mic and some software. Can you point me in the direction of a good brand and model of mic that isn't too exorbitant as far as pricing is concerned?

Thank you for your feedback, BTW, I appreciate someone taking an interest in what I am attempting to do. I just want to make sure that if someone is experiencing something, then I want to be able to show them what is causing those experiences. Now I know that I won't be able to explain away all of them. The ones that I can't explain are the ones that interest me and it sounds like interest you as well.

Thank you again for your guidance.

#8 CaveRat2

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 05:23 PM

A "microphone" is only part of it. When dealing with infrasound you are dealing with frequencies that are near , but not quite DC. Trouble is most common amplifiers use coupling capacitors to block DC between stages. This means those same capacitors will greatly attenuate infrasound frequencies as well.

So you need to use DC amplifiers. These are available, but are not your average audio amp. Most are differential input with DC stabilization circuitry. They are also not inexpensive. This is also why it is not feasible to use a computer for a spectrum analyzer or oscilloscope at these frequencies unless you have upgraded and are using an amplifier board intended for that purpose. The average sound card, mic and line in, also use coupling capacitors which would block infrasound.

#9 ArtooD2

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:11 AM

CaveRat...so how would you suggest that I attempt to detect that there are infrasound waves in a location? I am at a bit of a loss here. I need some help and I really don't know who to talk to. I have contacted a friend that works at a local university and he said that he would be contacting the physics dept where he works but I don't know if that is going to work.

Does anyone have a design that I can look at and build myself? I am good with building myself but I need some real specific guidance on how to build it.

Thanks for any and all help that someone can provide. I will share any designs that I happen upon here as well as my results of testing.

-Artoo

#10 CaveRat2

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 09:06 AM

CaveRat...so how would you suggest that I attempt to detect that there are infrasound waves in a location? I am at a bit of a loss here. I need some help and I really don't know who to talk to. I have contacted a friend that works at a local university and he said that he would be contacting the physics dept where he works but I don't know if that is going to work.

Does anyone have a design that I can look at and build myself? I am good with building myself but I need some real specific guidance on how to build it.

Thanks for any and all help that someone can provide. I will share any designs that I happen upon here as well as my results of testing.

-Artoo


I would begin by looking in to seismic monitoring equipment for starters. You may have to modify or adapt some types, but that would at least be a starting point. Later you may want to adapt some of those techniques as your research progresses.

I don't have a design available right now for the amplifiers you would need. Which isn't to say that I couldn't build one, just haven't done so yet, thus I have nothing to share at this time. It is something that I may try soon though, and if I do I will build the required equipment myself. But since I haven't done the initial research I can't make any more definitive recommendations. Sorry.I would be interested in seeing any designs you may come across though and might be able to suggest mods if required.

#11 Robot

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:57 AM

CaveRat...so how would you suggest that I attempt to detect that there are infrasound waves in a location? I am at a bit of a loss here. I need some help and I really don't know who to talk to. I have contacted a friend that works at a local university and he said that he would be contacting the physics dept where he works but I don't know if that is going to work.

Does anyone have a design that I can look at and build myself? I am good with building myself but I need some real specific guidance on how to build it.

Thanks for any and all help that someone can provide. I will share any designs that I happen upon here as well as my results of testing.

-Artoo


I would first attempt a very low tech approach. These low frequencies,(if loud enough), might be evident if you....

1. Turn out the lights
2. Shine your light upward.
3. Sprinkle baking soda or other fine powder from 2' above the light.
4. You may see low Hz oscillation of the particles as they drift down to the light.

Another thought is, A suspended piece of glass, of the correct size, should vibrate, you might be able to see some movement of the glass with a laser pointer.
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.(Proverbs 18:2)http://www.ghostphysics.blogspot.com./

#12 Robot

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:22 PM

With Regard to Thermal Imaging, you would need to be more specific. A typical CCD based camcorder is sensitive to some IR, try it with you TV remote. There are examples of "modified" camcorders that are more IR and UV sensitive, here is a link to one such camera:

http://www.moditroni...FScamcorder.htm

True thermal sensitive cameras, such as you see on "Ghost Hunters" are very expensive. PIR simple temperature differential sensors are relatively inexpensive
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.(Proverbs 18:2)http://www.ghostphysics.blogspot.com./

#13 ArtooD2

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 01:25 PM

Yes, those FLIR cameras can run you upwards of $10,000.00 for the really high end ones. I think that the one that I saw a week or so ago on Ghost Hunters, they mentioned it cost around $2,000.00.

#14 OMPRDave

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 05:00 PM

Try bringing an animal like a dog into the location. They are able to hear further on both ends of the infra and ultrasonic ends of the human range of hearing. It also might explain why dogs and cats refuse to go into certain areas in locations. You won't be able to know the levels for sure, but you would at east get a visual indicator that there is a response by the animal and can then come back later with the right equipment to try and figure it out.
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#15 Old Guy

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 05:15 PM

I've used the Frequency Multiplier circuit here with some success: http://www.bluebelld...m/HobbyHelp.htm
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