77 replies to this topic

[Green Man]

aloha_spirit, on Aug 16 2007, 06:39 PM, said:

Green Man, on Aug 16 2007, 04:47 PM, said:

aloha_spirit, on Aug 16 2007, 05:22 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, in his incomplete retranslation, Joseph Smith Jr. replaced the word "witch" with "murderer".

Interestingly enough, it seems King James and the Catholic Church aren't the only people who feel they had the right to change words around to suit their needs.

The Masoretic Text was copied and preserved by a group of Jews (the Masoretes) earlier than 600 BCE. The other major source of the Old Testament text is the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation from about 300 BCE. If you know history, you should realize that this took place long before the Catholic Church came into existence.

I am curious as to your source which renders the word in question as "prisoner". The Septuagint renders Exodus 22:18 as You shall not save the lives of sorcerers. I am in the process of figuring out which fragments of the Dead Sea Scroll deal with this particular verse.

"Poisoner".......

As in someone who poisons with the tongue.

Speaking ill... spreading ill information to a negative end etc.

My mother in law.

[allege]

I believe it is possible to be a mix of almost any religions. But I know of a type of women here in the hills that is in the strict definition a witch, if they ever refer to themselves as a witch they will say they are a "natural witch". They don't view what they do in a religious sense except to say that they do God's work or have been blessed with their gifts through God. Nearly all of these type of women in this area are Christian but that is because Christianity is the dominate religion. You find these "natural witches" cross-culturally so what religion they practice is different depending on where they live. Watching these women is amazing, they are so powerful, they will usually tell you if a baby will be "one of them" before the baby is even born because they can sense the childs abilities.

These women are also very private about what they are and what they can do. Its almost impossible to get one to open up about this, and even among themselves they have an amazing sense of knowing what the other is about without saying it. I could go on and on about this because they are a group I have been trying to study and know for many years. One mistake I have found is calling them a Wiccan they for the most part hate the term they have made a clear distinction between Wiccans which they veiw as a religion that has took and manipulated there way of being and themselves.

[Celtic~Moon]

Hey, I know I came late in the game, but this is a very profound question, because to me it seems to ask about religion itself. I think in the semantics its easy to forget that religion is meant to be a place of comfort and safety in a world where we don't have all the answers. The way it is gone about to seek answers is inmaterial to the quest itself. A person may ask themself a spiritual question, and cast runes to divine it, or light a candle in a cathedral, or speak to their rabbi, or pray in deep meditation in an ancient Eastern temple. Spirituality knows no restrictions, no rules, no procedures, those things are of human creation. So spiritually, you can be a Christian, a Wiccan, a Witchcraft practitioner, a Jewish follower, a Buddhist, a practitioner of Santeria, a Hindu, a Sikh, you can be all of that because it is the same thing spiritually. But in terms of the laws humans have assigned spirituality, then no. It comes down to what is more important: the spirituality, or the religious practices?

That's a lot and I'm sorry, just got one more thing to say, than I'll be done lol.

Taking a historical look at the rise of Christianity in relation to the famous phrase "don't suffer a witch to live" (I know, not an exact quote, but I do not study the bible. Those who do, kudos!). Christianity was taking a foothold in a world that was falling apart. The Roman Empire, the strongest the world had ever known, was collapsing on itself because of it's hedonistic tendencies. So, in an effort to save the world I suppose is the best way to put it, and to make sure that the world never falls again like the Roman Empire fell, those who wrote the bible did it in a mind to cut away what they saw as what was wrong with the world then. There are numerous examples in the bible: sexuality, not just homosexuality, had severe limitations put on it in fear that the pleasures afforded by it would turn the heads of those in power like the heads of the Roman Empire. Religion was streamlined to be restrictive to protect people from themselves, and to ensure that they will be safe in the times to come without worry that their leader will start a foolish war over sex (Helen of Troy anyone?). So at that time, the restictive nature of Christianity was exactly what the world needed to get back on its feet.

But religion does need to modify to fit the times, which it is....look at Christians who accept homosexuals with open arms!

For those who read all of that, I'm sorry and you deserve many many cookies.

L8r,
Celtic~Moon

[aloha_spirit]

Green Man, on Aug 16 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

"Poisoner".......

As in someone who poisons with the tongue.

Speaking ill... spreading ill information to a negative end etc.

My mother in law.

My bad in reading "poisoner" as "prisoner". But even so, why does "poisoner" have to be limited to the figurative meaning (someone who speaks ill)? Why can't it include the literal poisoner who gives poison to another? From a literal standpoint, sorcerer, witch, and even murderer make sense.

[aloha_spirit]

Celtic~Moon,

You're right on many levels. This is a question of spirituality versus religion.

The thread's title asks if one can be both a witch and a Christian. This is difficult to answer without defining both terms. In a broad sense, a witch is someone who practices witchcraft or has uncommon knowledge of plants and minerals (a kitchen witch), or who has unnatural powers (eg. a weather witch can control the weather). Only one category (those that practice witchcraft) is a religious definition. It is possible for a kitchen witch or natural witch to believe in Christianity and harmoniously follow it.

OTOH, the first post asks if one can be both Wiccan and Christian. Wiccan is defined as someone who follows Wicca - a religion. Again I declare that one can't satisfactorily follow two religions, especially when one of them declares itself the only true religion. Surely aspects can be borrowed, though.

[Celtic~Moon]

I agree, and put forward that many religions have become what they are by borrowing aspects of other beliefs, customs and religions. So, basically it comes down to this:

Witch AND Christian - absolutely.

Wiccan AND Christian - not so much, no.

Despite the semantics and rules and differences of it all, I take solace in the fact that all paths lead to one destination. It's something to hold on to when surrounded at times by jihads, holy conflicts, and descrimination.

Blessed Be,
Celtic~Moon

[Green Man]

Contradiction......

[secretsign]

The answer to the question is no. I was Wiccan and now I'm A Christian.

[shdwmnkyX]

The Catholic Church use to sanction "Green Witchcraft." That in effect would make it possible. However I would also like to point out that Christian has become a catch all term so it would depend on denomination as well.

[sleepyguy]

Ultimately, I say no. Not at least for a Wiccan and a Christian.

As for Christian and Witch... well... I cannot wholly agree that you can be both. I mean, I know women who claim to be witches, but are also Christian. Most claim the one, and practice the other (either way really). The women and men that I know, who in my mind truly fit in to a "mystical world", claim only Christianity. They have the spiritual gifts that sometimes are rather mystical. For my mother, she has an uncanny sixth sense. She just knows things before they are going to happen. Christian's call it the gift of prophesy, but a non-christian might claim it as an ability to foretell or divine the future. She isn't always right, but when she is wrong, her having told me to be careful in a certain aspect has often times saved either my life or saved me from other non-life threatening mishap.

I suppose my point is, that yes... by some terms, you can be both a witch and a Christian, but to deny the cause of the gift you have, is in itself not really a Christian act. We are to rejoice in the gifts that God gives us, and we are to use them. Just as in the aforementioned parable about the servants who are given money to invest whilst their master is away. The two servants who used their gifts were grateful for the chance to use their gift, and thus went out and did so. They were then blessed with more gifts. The servant that was afraid to lose the gift he was given, hid it away, as if ashamed. His gift was taken away, he did not act in a way that was grateful for having been given the gift, but was instead more afraid of losing it. If you are a Christian, and you have a spiritual gift, let me ask you this, why do you have to look further than your own faith for an explanation for your gift? If you can make prophesy, why do you have to go elsewhere and discover other ways to prophesy? If you are a healer, why do you have to look for other explanations of your gift, following other tenets of faith? Why can't you just thank God for being able to heal, and do so?

If you are not a Christian, then those questions do not apply to you. Really, the questions do not need an answer. It has been my experience, that most people who truly have some of the more amazing spiritual gifts, go no further than their own current faith's to justify their using it, or as a means to the end of using it. It has also been my experience, that those who are jealous of other's gifts, or those who do not understand the unspoken promise in the parable that Jesus gave regarding the talents, go elsewhere to find a means to their end. Sometimes we have to understand ourselves, and where we are to fully be able to make use of some of the other more lame sounding gifts. I mean... who wants to be able to discern spirits when they could be making miracles? I say this, because I was there. While my path is most definetely different than anyone elses on this site, mayhaps this leg of the journey is not much different.

I know from experience, that some churches are less apt to believe in certain aspects of the bible than others. The bible speaks a bit on spiritual gifts. If you call yourself a Christian, it is my opinion that you should first explore your own faith in the God you worship before looking outward for a means or explanation of your gift. It is really quite amazing some of the things that Paul mentions to be spiritual gifts, but some of us, myself included, can parrallel with "witch craft". To me, the difference lies in where you believe you draw your power. Not your focus, but is this something you have been able to accomplish on your own? Or is this something you managed to accomplish through God? While you may believe the one, someone else may believe the other, or something differently entirely. Just remember however, the Bible mentions that all things are possible through Christ our Lord. The Bible does not say that all things are possible through casting spells, or utilizing some means that is self lead. That is not to say that I do not think it is possible to have some form of ritual in Christianity (take the Catholics for instance). The end does not justify the means. There is a difference here in my mind.

I am not always correct. But this feels to have a bit of truth to it. It is not my place to judge any one person who chooses to be a witch or heretic. While it sometimes feels to be a bit of a paradox within the church (suffering not a witch to live, yet God makes it possible to perform many of the things a witch can through the spiritual gifts), there is definetely a bit of a line on the motives and means that are taken between someone using a "spiritual gift" and a "spell". Rituals may be involved in both, the outcome may be the same in both. Beyond that, I personally see little difference.


This was long. Im out. Sorry.

[axlfoley]

This is an interesting topic and I would like to comment but it would be unfair because I don't know anything about Wicca. If anyone can just give me a brief summary of what it is about that would be great.

[meanderer]

Take into consideration that Deuteronomy was written long before Jesus is believed to have lived, and that being a "Christian" could be as simple as following the example of Christ, I believe that it is possible to be a Christian Wiccan. If people so choose.

Even with Christianity, there is so much division and differences amongst the "sects" of the faith, that you would be hard pressed to find the "true" faith of Christianity. I know, I know...they all think they follow the true faith. But they seldom do.

Edited by meanderer, 19 November 2007 - 09:13 AM.

[Green Man]

aloha_spirit, on Aug 22 2007, 09:21 PM, said:

Celtic~Moon,

You're right on many levels. This is a question of spirituality versus religion.

The thread's title asks if one can be both a witch and a Christian. This is difficult to answer without defining both terms. In a broad sense, a witch is someone who practices witchcraft or has uncommon knowledge of plants and minerals (a kitchen witch), or who has unnatural powers (eg. a weather witch can control the weather). Only one category (those that practice witchcraft) is a religious definition. It is possible for a kitchen witch or natural witch to believe in Christianity and harmoniously follow it.

OTOH, the first post asks if one can be both Wiccan and Christian. Wiccan is defined as someone who follows Wicca - a religion. Again I declare that one can't satisfactorily follow two religions, especially when one of them declares itself the only true religion. Surely aspects can be borrowed, though.

The word Wiccan is one coined in the 50's by Gerald Gardner. Before this, anyone who practiced the religion was a Witch, and the religious aspect was Witchcraft. To some Wicca and Witchcraft are interchangeable terms. To others, they are not and fight vehemetly that Wicca and Witchcraft are not the same thing. To each their own. That is why we have the freedom to believe what we wish to believe.

[LadyWolf]

I believe you can "blend" anything but then you wouldn't be Christian or Wiccan. I'm a practicing solitary and I've blended aspects of Wicca but not Christianity.

[ritchiedotson]

Corey-go to your Christian church and tell the priest about your divinations, or any spellwork you do and see what he has to say about it.[b]


I am a Christian Witch and am a member of a United Methodist Church. I've told my pastor of my practices and that I am a studying Christian Witch. He is ok with it. He told me that as long as what I do is in love its ok. He also knows that I adopt things from many other religions.

Edited by ritchiedotson, 02 January 2008 - 02:26 AM.