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#16 SpectralSpy

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Posted 28 July 2003 - 07:21 AM

George Knapp is the man.He is one of the few TV reporters who dives in head first to any type of paranormal event,and is not afraid of dealing with the debunkers and any negative backlashes.He is the guy who broke open the Bob Lazar case(the phycisist who worked at area 51 who reported we have alien craft there).
Hopefully George will get some nationwide funding,as he has done some really exciting work.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.It is the source of all true art and science.He to whom this emotion is a stranger,who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe,is as good as dead-His eyes are closed."Albert Einstein

#17 TKE448

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 04:53 AM

ohhorror,

Was that the second part included there?  I have read them before, but that seems like it could only be the first part.  I may be able to find the link to part 2.
A Drifter is only a poet with wings, he moves but he can't learn to fly, running in footsteps ahead of his time, with no one to see if he cries. Doyle Lawson & QuicksilverPosted ImagePosted Image

#18 ohhorror

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 05:32 AM

[glow=red,2,300]TKE448[/glow]

I thought I had the whole article, if there is more out there I would love to read it.
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#19 TKE448

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 06:20 AM

Here is the link to the second part of the two-part story:

http://www.lasvegasm...2/20138162.html
A Drifter is only a poet with wings, he moves but he can't learn to fly, running in footsteps ahead of his time, with no one to see if he cries. Doyle Lawson & QuicksilverPosted ImagePosted Image

#20 Bangin

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 10:52 AM

TKE448,
Thank you for posting that.  Oh my!  

Here is a quote from a NIDS member at the ranch whom has a doctorate in physics:

"It's a very messy affair. Nothing is clear cut. It isn't as simple as saying that E.T.s or flying saucers are doing it," the scientist said. "It's some kind of consciousness, but it's always something new and different, something non-repeatable. It's reactive to people and equipment, and we set up the ranch to be a proving ground for the scientific method, but science doesn't seem amenable to the solution of these kinds of problems."
First voice: "Where is he...around here?"Second voice: "He's dead."First voice: "Ah, he could be anywhere then."

#21 TKE448

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 11:17 AM

On the downside of this though, are the people who are out to try to disprove everything that was written in the article, not only the paranormal, but degrade the people that are involved in this ordeal.  I'll be gone over the weekend, but on Monday, if anyone is interested, I will try to track down the sites that are doing this.  Just let me know if you want to read them.
A Drifter is only a poet with wings, he moves but he can't learn to fly, running in footsteps ahead of his time, with no one to see if he cries. Doyle Lawson & QuicksilverPosted ImagePosted Image

#22 stevenedel

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 11:38 AM

Nice story, about the ranch - so, now show us the proof !!!! (and for proof, stories arenīt good enough!).

Of course, weīll never see it. For some inscrutable reason those researching the paranormal are the only īscientistsī who will hide their evidence and hermitically seal their research locations from critical scrutiny by independent (and skeptical) observers.

On second thought, the reason maybe not that inscrutable. I am pretty sure they simply havenīt got anything to show. If they had, it would be Nobel Prize stuff - you bet they would be out there, showing it to everyone!
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#23 stevenedel

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 12:00 PM

PS. Forgot all about the psychologist. Check out his work (one good scientific habit, guys: if you refer to somebodyīs work, always mention names and sources!):

http://phoenix.herts...RWhomepage.html

Now here is some solid and truly scientific research, published in excellent scientific journals, not tabloids! No doubt many here will dismiss Dr. Wiseman as a īdebunkerī. But his findings are there, and they arenīt good news for believers. If he finds that he can generate ghostly sensations simply by recreating certain natural characteristics of the Edinburgh vaults in a lab, he will have proven that you donīt need ghosts to explain such sensations. (Yes, I know: that doesnīt prove such sensations may not still be caused by ghosts. But it does get rather hard to stick to that theory when a far simpler explanation will do the job!).
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#24 SpectralSpy

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Posted 23 August 2003 - 02:49 PM

LOL,I would like to see him explain away EVP,and some of the AUDIBLE voices Peter James has captured ON CAMERA aboard the Queen Mary.Of course,he would just have some excuse of how it was some 'artificially-created' event,not really paranormal.No need to,'dismiss him as a debunker',that's exactly what he is,hehheh.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.It is the source of all true art and science.He to whom this emotion is a stranger,who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe,is as good as dead-His eyes are closed."Albert Einstein

#25 stevenedel

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 04:26 AM

Of course he is!  ;D And we should be glad of it. According to my concise Oxford Dictionary a debunker is somebody who shows things to be exagerrated or false. Debunkers bring us closer to the truth.

So why is debunker a term of abuse on this site?? Iīd say, because believers donīt want facts, donīt want the truth, - they just want to believe.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#26 stevenedel

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 05:12 AM

(Oh, and as for Peter James - puh-lease! The man makes heaps of money from selling ghost stories. If you look him up on the web the first sites you hit are called īfabuloustravelī or īthemeparkadventureī, where he sells ghostly evenings on the Queen Mary (dinner included), for $99!!! I would think that if you were in touch with the next world you would stand in awe of it and treat it with the greatest respect. But psychics seem oddly inclined to turn it into a salable attraction asap. Greyfriars in Edinburgh is another (and pretty tasteless) example. Anyway, his vested interests do not recommend mr. James as a witness who warrants blind faith.
I heard some of his EVPs by the way, on

http://www.glowingdi.../audiofiles.htm

Mainly lots of noise and then the faint voice of a child. A ghost? Or just some special effects? No doubt many will prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. I donīt)
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#27 SpectralSpy

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 07:43 AM

Uh,okay...lol.It's obvious what side of the fence you sit on,and that's perfectly fine,as we're all entitled to our own opinions(and that's all yours is).Just don't try to shove your non-beliefs down my throat,as I know what I've experienced,and no debunker is going to explain things away with his 'own percieved fact'of what I've experienced.Just out of curiosity,since you're so convinced that we're all just living in some fantasy world and are full of it,why are you hanging out at this site? ::) Seems pretty oxymoronic to me.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.It is the source of all true art and science.He to whom this emotion is a stranger,who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe,is as good as dead-His eyes are closed."Albert Einstein

#28 Bangin

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 08:22 AM

So why is debunker a term of abuse on this site?? Iīd say, because believers donīt want facts, donīt want the truth, - they just want to believe.

That's a harsh generalization.   Of course I cannot speak for everyone on this site, but I am in search of the truth (as most of us are).

I heard some of his EVPs by the way, on

http://www.glowingdi.../audiofiles.htm

Mainly lots of noise and then the faint voice of a child. A ghost? Or just some special effects?


As for Peter James, perhaps he could be faking his findings.  That certainly isn't the case for the EVP's that I've obtained.  I think there is a serious misconception that believers base their beliefs on so called bogus psychics etc.  Many of us have experienced strange things ourselves.  We've recorded and documented these happenings.  It's very easy for a non-believer to dismiss a believer's so called paranormal experiences.  I think the main issue is that I go into the field and see for myself.  Most non-believer's simply overlook our findings.  If these ghostly allegations raise question, then get into the mix and see what you find.  It could change a thing or two about your beliefs.  

All in all, I think it's beneficial to have a skeptic's point of view.  It helps to keep us well-grounded.  We should post our opinions and try to respect each other's beliefs...as we are all entitled to our own. :)
First voice: "Where is he...around here?"Second voice: "He's dead."First voice: "Ah, he could be anywhere then."

#29 stevenedel

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 09:49 AM

why are you hanging out at this site?  Seems pretty oxymoronic to me.

To answer that one first: after a recent visit to Edinburgh I was interested to see whether a ghost story they market there had actually caught on. Looking for it on the web brought me here. I got intrigued by the message board discussions because as a cultural psychologist Iīm interested in religion, which is what this site really is about, I think.

And then you get this:

We've recorded and documented these happenings.  It's very easy for a non-believer to dismiss a believer's so called paranormal experiences.  

Now thatīs the thing thatīs fascinating about paranormal believers: they are not content to believe, they want to pass off their beliefs as scientific facts. Nothing wrong with that, but if thatīs what you want, you have to play by the rules of science. If thatīs what you want you canīt defuse critical discussion with the non-committal  conclusion that everybody is entitled to his or her opinion. Because weīre not talking opinion, weīre talking FACTS, i.e.: one of us is wrong. And unfortunately, as it is impossible to prove that something does NOT exist, it is up to the believers to provide convincing evidence that ghosts are real.
Everybody around here is claiming that such evidence abounds, but I havenīt seen it. All Iīve seen are photoīs full of specks of dust or moist, with people for no conceivable reason jumping to the conclusion that these must be ghosts. Iīve heard EVPs with the kind of vague sounds that my house produces all the time,  - and believe me, it isnīt haunted. If you want me not to dismiss your evidence, get me evidence thatīs not so easy to dismiss!

Really, I am eager to see evidence! Who wouldnīt be? But donīt expect me to turn my views of reality upside down on the strength of some nice camp-fire stories and a stack of bad photographs and worse sound recordings. If we lower our standards to accept that kind of īevidenceī it would mean that not only ghosts exist, but also unicorns, gnomes, fairies, the yeti, Bigfoot, aliens in a staggering number of varieties, the Loch Ness monster, God AND Allah AND Brahma, not to mention the rest of the 1,000+ Hindu pantheon, Santa Claus, etc.etc. It would mean the world is rife with the most sensational occurences - and yet there isnīt a shred of solid evidence: i.e., evidence that can stand truly critical scrutiny; evidence that cannot be explained by dozens of mundane reasons that are far more plausible than any of these phenomena; evidence that is not dependent on the presence of one particular person; evidence that can be replicated.

OK, OK, Iīll stop there.  :-X Itīs just that I have a really hard time understanding why grown-up, 21st century Westerners, who all had a decent education, are not only prepared but even eager to give up all their reason and common sense to believe in fairy-tales again.  >:) I know that believers often say that scientists are just scared of what isīout thereī. But really, in history it were always the scientists who came up with the truly amazing (and often scary) discoveries. Maybe the believers are the ones who are scared - scared to face an everyday world without the illusion of other dimensions.

Oh and SectralSpy, donīt worry. I wonīt be around for long. I know from experience (I actually have some believer friends) that you will keep thinking Iīm just a īdebunkerī who will learn his lesson as soon as he has his first īencounterī (Iīll let you know  ;D), while I will stick to the above views until a detailed study demonstrating the existence of ghosts is published in a respectable scientific journal.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#30 SpectralSpy

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 10:08 AM

Actually,you're wrong.Read my sig. :PYou have already made your mind up.To each his own. :)
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.It is the source of all true art and science.He to whom this emotion is a stranger,who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe,is as good as dead-His eyes are closed."Albert Einstein




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