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NEWS - Psychologist bids to create....


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#31 stevenedel

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 11:23 AM

 ::)

I´m not saying you are wrong; I´m only saying your evidence is not very compelling. Seeing how sure you are that I am wrong, it seems you are the one who has made his mind up.

Shouldn´t the sig read: "To believers, explanations are unwelcome (to pychics exploiting those beliefs even more so), and to non-believers there is nothing to explain"?  ;)
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#32 SpectralSpy

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 11:51 AM

No,I think you have helped the sig prove itself quite nicely,lol.

It's funny,but I don't see myself going out of my way to visit skeptic boards and trying to push my beliefs upon those that do not believe.You have made the choice to come HERE(a paranormal board) to try and ram cynisism down the throats of those who do.BTW-the science argument is hilarious,as hardly any two scientists ever agree on anything,and when they do,there is always another scientist who comes along and shoots all sorts of holes in their theories/extrapolations.The fact-of-the-day is always shifting and changing amongst the ever-bickering scientific field.Scientific theory is great,but it is never the end-all of anything,especially what science does not even understand,and cannot measure.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.It is the source of all true art and science.He to whom this emotion is a stranger,who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe,is as good as dead-His eyes are closed."Albert Einstein

#33 stevenedel

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 03:42 AM

It's funny,but I don't see myself going out of my way to visit skeptic boards and trying to push my beliefs upon those that do not believe.

But you should! Nothing like a good discussion with people that will not necessarily agree with you to keep your self-critical faculties sharp! Some of your co-moderators seem to understand that, several messageboards encourage the posting of diverging and skeptical viewpoints.

The fact-of-the-day is always shifting and changing amongst the ever-bickering scientific field.

Scary, isn't it? No solid, comforting 'truths' there - only hypotheses, waiting to be replaced by better ones! Challenging each others views is the essence of science, and is what creates progress and gives us an ever clearer picture of reality. It is, by the way, also what created the PC through which you are having this discussion... :)
Postulating unassailable truths, like you seem to do, on the other hand will only create unflexible dogmatism.

I'm not a cynic, dear SpectralSpy, just a realist. To me, reality is complex and fascinating enough without ghosts, and indeed offers quite a lot that science yet has to understand and explain - you're right on that one for sure. I am quite willing to include the idea that  ghosts exist, by way of an interesting hypothesis. But I am not prepared to accept it as 'truth' on the basis of crummy evidence that I am not even allowed to question. We can't backslide into that kind of medieval church politics in 2003, can we?
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#34 Bangin

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 06:10 AM

I am quite willing to include the idea that  ghosts exist, by way of an interesting hypothesis. But I am not prepared to accept it as 'truth' on the basis of crummy evidence that I am not even allowed to question.


Let's not go as far as to say that questions aren't allowed.  The real matter, I believe, is that questions go unanswered.  

Stevenedel, you are in control of your own beliefs.  You will or will not make the transition.  I can't speak for everyone, but I don't want any involvement with your decision.  I don't want to convince you of anything.  You seem to have already established a viewpoint and that is quite alright, as we are all entitled to our own.

In an earlier post you said, "Now that´s the thing that´s fascinating about paranormal believers: they are not content to believe, they want to pass off their beliefs as scientific facts. Nothing wrong with that, but if that´s what you want, you have to play by the rules of science."  Well, that's not what I want.  I became a member of Ghostvillage.com to share my experiences and learn from others.  If I wanted to 'pass my beliefs' off in any manner, then I'd probably join a board in which there aren't many believers  ie. a board unlike Ghostvillage.com.  

Don't get me wrong, I hope one day someone presents the necessary information for ghosts to be accepted into the scientific community.  As you mentioned before, no one has presented "a shred of solid evidence" in regards to an afterlife.  We're no different than those whom believe in "God AND Allah AND Brahma, not to mention the rest of the 1,000+ Hindu pantheon".  We establish our beliefs for our own reasons.  There are many belief systems that conflict with another...that's life and has been for quite some time now.
First voice: "Where is he...around here?"Second voice: "He's dead."First voice: "Ah, he could be anywhere then."

#35 stevenedel

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:13 AM

Thanks, Bangin, for a post that proves that believers and non-believers don't need to speak different languages! It's simply a matter of not confusing beliefs (which don't require proof) with facts (that can't exist without proof). If we can agree on that, there is no disagreement.

And as for this:

I hope one day someone presents the necessary information for ghosts to be accepted into the scientific community.

I'm with you all the way - it would be thrilling!
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#36 TKE448

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:22 AM

For what it is worth, here is my 2 cents.  I know what I beleive and what I have seen.  I have spent endless hours trying to explain these things in a natural manner.  Some I can, some I can't.  So naturally, when I post anything, I have preconceived notions on what I think, but, that doesn't mean that you can't give me an idea that I can use to "re-build" my notion, not losing what I know, but adding a bit of ....something to it to make it more formidable.
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#37 KarenSue1973

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 05:40 PM

In the first article it said something about a psychologist setting up an expeirement to prove that haunted houses aren't real.  They can not do that.  I have had a few psychology classes in college.  They take an oath that they have to follow.  Everyone in the expeirement has to know why it is being done.  So if he is a liscensed one then he can not be doing things like that.  Oh, that makes me so mad!!!  
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#38 Gregory

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 03:14 PM

They take an oath that they have to follow.  Everyone in the expeirement has to know why it is being done.  So if he is a liscensed one then he can not be doing things like that.


I don't see where in the initial post it said that the psychologist in question is intending to lie to people.  At any rate, my psychology teacher covered this exact topic just this morning; according to her, psychologists are allowed to lie to experimental subjects, at least up to a point.  For example, she described an experiment in learned helplessness that she helped perform during which she and her colleagues assured their subjects that a task they were being asked to perform was relatively simple; in fact, it was designed to be impossible.  Psychologists are also allowed to lie about what, exactly, they're trying to test, since knowledge of that could bias the subjects' behavior.

Psychologists are, however, required to give their subjects enough information for the subjects to give intelligent consent to the experiment.  And after the experiment is over, they are required to grant full disclosure to everyone involved.
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#39 KarenSue1973

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:48 PM

It is informed consent...the subject needs to know why the expierement is being done.  In the first article talked about a psychologist setting up a fake haunted house to prove that its all people's imagination.  If that is not an expierement then what is it?
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#40 Gregory

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:27 PM

I e-mailed my teacher to ask about informed consent; I'll get back to you on it.

I'm not sure that it's even an issue, though.  The psychologist is honestly telling people that the house is not haunted, and that he plans to rig in up so that it seems to be.  If he was telling people that the house was haunted, I could see how it might be a problem, but as far as I know, he's not doing that.
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#41 KarenSue1973

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 07:20 PM

I had an instructor that was a thesis paper away from his doctorates degree last semester.  I have in again for abnormal psych next week.  He explained that in order for an expeirement there has to be informed consent.  That means that the subject needs to know why the expeirement is being conducted.  He preached that to us when he was discussing this.
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#42 Gregory

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 04:56 AM

Fine, they have to have informed consent.  We agree on that.  My question is, what is this psychologist doing to keep his subjects from giving informed consent?  We're not told that he's lying to his subjects.  In fact, the fact that details of the experiment have been posted online suggest that the experiment isn't supposed to be a secret.  Therefore, anyone who goes into his "haunted" house knows is advance that the house isn't really haunted, but that he'll try to make it seem as if it is.  That, to my mind, is enough information to form informed consent.
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#43 KarenSue1973

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 05:03 AM

OK, don't you find that immoral?  I do.  Lets see in order to get informe consent you need to tell the person that they are going into a mock haunted house to see if they can get the same reactions like its a real haunted house.  Why not just use a real haunted house?  Why put people through that.  I am sorry I just think that this expierement is wrong.  There is no way that this psychologist should be doing this!!  Its against the guidelines of an expeirement.
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#44 TKE448

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 06:03 AM

This is what really gripes me about science  >:) I mean, we all talk about what we have seen and experienced, and science asks us for proof.  We give them everything that we are capable of giving them, and they tell us that it isn't scientific enough.  And then, they turn around and do stuff like this.  GRRRRRRRRRRRR >;)
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#45 Gregory

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 08:09 AM

OK, don't you find that immoral?

No, I do not.

I do.  Lets see in order to get informe consent you need to tell the person that they are going into a mock haunted house to see if they can get the same reactions like its a real haunted house.  Why not just use a real haunted house?


The whole point of the experiment is to see if you can replicate the effects of a haunted house using nonsupernatural methods.  He can't use a real haunted house because that wouldn't prove anything except that you can use a haunted house to duplicate the effects of a haunted house.[/quote/

Why put people through that.

Put people through what?  I still don't understand how you think he's mistreating  his subjects.

I am sorry I just think that this expierement is wrong.  There is no way that this psychologist should be doing this!!  Its against the guidelines of an expeirement.


Well, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.  I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
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