96 replies to this topic

[Cristelle32]

and yes, once again I have to agree with the fact that people often use the 'it's God's will' mantra TOO MANY TIMES!

It's not about God's will, it's about people's choices, the very essence of life.

[petunia4998]

Justa, I know you say you are a firm believer in a person's right to their own religion, but it seems that you really are not.  It seems like you want them to abide but what you believe, and that is something you should not do.  You can only make decisions about your life and your life alone.  It is hard to do, though, isn't it?  But I am one of those people who don't think death is the worst thing that can happen or that death is worse than life.  I also believe in reincarnation so I don't think this is the end of it all.  A lot of time I don't understand peoples' actions, but it's not really meant for me to understand it.  Things happen for a reason and that's a given.

I once received a lot of flak by stating that God loved Hitler every bit as much as he loves me and you, but it's true.  God's love is unconditional.  

[petunia4998]

Wait a minute Cristelle, are you saying that people's choices supercede God's will?  
do you honestly believe that?  That we know more than God?

[MoonChild]

Quote

It's not about God's will, it's about people's choices, the very essence of life.

HELL YEAH!

God gave us the power to choose to make good use of it realize our Karmic Debts and get the hell out of the cycle of Birth and Death! And there is nothing like God's Will - it is only the Karmic bondages we have created by ourselves!

[anasuya]

I don't think Justa has disproven himself as a supporter of practicing what suits you best. He merely proposed the question that some religious practices might actually be harmful, and if so, does it support a spiritual existence. At lease, that's what I got out of it. Basically, are religious practices still considered religious when they hurt innocent people, like children not being granted medical attention? I think they quickly veer to "cult" status in cases like that. Again, just my opinion. These people aren't just making decisions about their life and their life alone... they are putting their children in harms way all because they believe wether or not their children live or die is the "will of God". Doesn't NOT seeking medical attention for a minor fall under "child neglect", or can they use the religion excuse to get out of that? Pity if they can.

Petunia, you make a good point about believing our will superceeds that of God, but you make that point on the basis that we are all Christian, and believe in God in that way. I'm pagan and happen to believe that God is simply a collection of the spirit of every thing that ever lived, is living, or will live. Meaning, in my own way, I am God myself. So yes... our choices DO supercede the will of God. Maybe supercede isn't the right word. I should say that I don't believe there IS a will of God. There is only our will. But, it makes for a great debate! lol.

Just like we had the whole religion vs. state thread, this kind of poses the same questions. Because, at what point does anyone have the right to say the beliefs of others should be monitored and changed by any facility outside of their religious one? I see this, logically, but there's still the emotional side of me that says "But what about those kids that can't chose for themselves". Then again, I also don't believe in raising your children in any particular religion, so it's then understandable why I would hold this stance.

Excellent points made by everyone, and this is a great thread.

Ana

[Justa]

Thankyou Ana, you are correct.  I don’t believe that I am imposing any of my beliefs on anybody else by pointing out facts.  

Petunia, if you think that I am trying to force my beliefs on you by bringing up a topic that I am sure will stimulate conversation, possible debates, and differing viewpoints then I apologize.  All I am asking is what are the different view points of the different religions.  I am fairly certain I haven’t jumped on a proverbial soapbox and started preaching.  I believe you learn the most by listening to those who know, and actually practice the various religions.  In my examples I have simply pointed out what I have been lead to believe are facts.  

If you want my honest opinion, I think it is BS that people can stand by and watch a child die and pray for intervention from the almighty.  However, I still would not force my opinion on others.  In my mind it is wrong, and to be blunt, pretty archaic thought processes.  Agree or disagree with me, I don’t really care.  The same as I am sure you don’t care if I agree or disagree with you.  Afterall, who am I to say that “God’s Will” is wrong and I am right.  

Speaking of God’s Will, I have heard it said that God has given us the ability to choose.  In doing so, yes, our thoughts supercede his will.  The same as if you have children, you can try to guide them in what you consider the correct direction, but ultimately it is their choice, not yours.

Sorry, we are getting a little off topic here.  I know we have started focusing on the aspect of parents making decisions for their children, but there are also a lot of adults who make that same decision for themself.  I would still like to hear some of the other religions and how they interpret faith healing vs medicine.

[Cristelle32]

that 'we know more than God' ? - Petunia, where the hell did you read that in my posts?!? What an assumption!

Who said that we know more than God?  All I said was that ultimately, life boils down to choice, and nothing else.

[petunia4998]

Quite right, Justa, I shouldn't jump overboard.  As for faith healing, when I give a healing, as I was taught, i pray that I heal as much as is karmically possible.  To me, there is nothing worse than interferring with karma because I know it's going to mess with MY lessons.  The basic tenet is that you can only judge YOURSELF, and have no business or right to tell anybody else what to do.  Because YOU don't know what kinds of lessons they need to learn.  But that's really hard to follow.

[bardo]

What's harmfull is not using our brain to make decissions.I don't beleive that religions should dictate to you what you can or cannot use to make yourself or a loved as healthy as possible.However I may pick a religion that has the same values I do.Remember that not all medical procedures are healthy. We have alot of forces like multibillion dollar drug companies that come into play.If I have to decide what is right for me and when I am guardian I have the responsibilility to do what I think is right for that person.I can't beleive that if there is a God he would send me to hell for choosing the wrong procedure.

[petunia4998]

But that's just it, Bardo, there's no WRONG decision.  It was the decision you were supposed to make at that time and no one has the right to tell you that it was wrong.  And God would never condemn you for anything you did.  That's not what unconditional love is all about.

[Vampchick21]

So it's NOT wrong to deny your sick child medical care because that's the decision you were supposed to make, even if that child dies from something that could have been easily treated?

Sorry, no offence, but that's hard to swallow.

[bardo]

Doctors have been wrong before.But if one told me that they could save my child by giving them a blood transfusion I would try it even if it was against my relig. Heck I wouldn't belong to a faith that dictates those kinds of rules .but then again I do work in the medical profession. the best way to handel anything medical is to do research and if there is time get a second opinion.

[Justa]

I know that in today's day and age with all the breakthroughs etc, it's hard to believe that medicine is not an exact science.  For as much as we know, there is still so much we don't know.  Was there ever an un-necessary blood transfusion? One that maybe made the patient worse off by transferring Hepatitis to them?  So maybe the people who believe that it is against God's will use that as an example of Him punishing those who broke the rule.  Look back to the 80s and how many cases of HIV and Hepatitis were caused by blood transfusions.

It's easy for us to sit on this side of the fence and call down those who make the decisions to reject medical assistance in the hope for help from a higher entity.  After all, we judge them by our values.  

You hit the nail on the head Bardo.  In order to belong to one of these religions, you have to be willing to follow blindly for lack of a better word.  If not, you run the risk of being removed from the religious order, or worse, belief that you will be punished in the afterlife.  I am sure that it is not easy for any parent to sit by and watch their child suffer, and hope above all hope that they will recover.  Let's face it, even those of us who accept medicine still pray that the medicine will help our loved ones get better.  And we don't pray to the pill bottle, the manufacturer, the pharmacist, or the doctor... we pray to God.

But it's not just the children.  Adults make these conscientious decisions for themselves too.  With all of the education and statistics that prove that medicine helps, they still refuse it and pray that their God will heal them.  

[Vampchick21]

It's that EXACT mindset that is being described is why when I do my healing magic (described in another thread on this board) for someone who is ill, I never, EVER tell them I'm doing it.  I don't want someone to forgo medical treatment just because they think I snapped my fingers and 'magicked' them better.  

I firmly believe that no matter your faith, one must make use of the medical technology avaliable to them in the case of serious illness.  Example, I never take anything for a common cold, since I know it will run through my system in a week, but if I had contracted SARS last year, yer darn right I'd beline it for the hospital, even though they were struggling with controling and treating the disease themselves.

And something I always wondered with regards to the Christian faiths that espouse faith and prayer over medicine and doctors.  God helps those that help themselves.  So isn't turning away from the medical profession altogether and turning to simply prayer NOT helping oneself?

[bardo]

I worked in t.o. for a few years .I worked for red cross blood transfusion service during the start of the aids scandal. Even though I know there is a chance I may get a disease from a blood transfusion.if it were a life and death desision I would have a blood trans. its a risk ,but it would mean death for sure if I didn't.But I do respect a persons right to deside for themselves,as for a child the government will step in if the parents say no to a life saveing procedure.