73 replies to this topic

[Justa]

Maybe the weeping icons are not quite the "miracle" that people think.  But so what.  It gives people hope, it gives them something to believe in, and it confirms their faith.  As for the pieces of cloth dipped in the fluid and passed out... it has been proven that having a positive outlook helps the body heal faster than being down trodden.  So, whether it is a hoax or not, in today's world, giving people some sort of hope to cling to is not necessarily a bad thing.  And who is to say that the Lord didn't intend for the person pulling the hoax to do so just for that purpose.

And this coming from somebody who claims no religion.  Maybe there is hope out there.

[freyjasdottir]

about icons and the Vatican, no they do not state is a miracle until proven otherwise, it is a hoax until proven otherwise

[Vampchick21]

In terms of the Catholic thing, Hawker, I hope you know that I do personally respect your faith, as it is also the faith I was raised in and that a large portion of my family practices.  All I wanted to know was why some Catholic Icons, such as the Virgin Mary, weep tears of blood.  I've heard and read about this many times over the years, and no one has been able to explain why to me.  The last Priest that I asked was fresh out of seminary school and he was unable to answer me.  I mean, why would, if the Virgin Mary is indeed causing a representation of herself to weep in the sight of worshippers, would she choose blood or a blood coloured substance?  Please do not think that I'm disrespecting the faith I was born and raised in by this question.  I was taught better than that.  

As I said before, I am fascinated by Icons of any religion appear to weep, or drink milk, or bleed, or any other manifestation of that type.  I ask my questions honestly and with respect...because I truely want to know why, how, etc.  

[Alsie R.]

hawkers,
        i'm really sorry if i insulted you by being sarcastic in my last post. like yosei said, i connect bloody imagery with catholicism because that's how i've been raised. i try to find humor in non humorour sitution because that's just what i do. i honestly did not mean any disrespect, as i do respect others faiths. almost everyone in my family is catholic and i'd sincerly rather not insult their faith and risk grounding. i hope you accept my apology.

 can we go back to talking about weeping religious icons now? i'd like to hear more about the milk tears.

[freyjasdottir]

well for starters it gets your attention if she is trying to do that and show who devestated she is at the state of the world blood would be nearly logical

[Vampchick21]

Quote

For all of you who were raised 'Catholic' and feel you have the right to pull punches, fine.  But now I'm going to start pulling punches with all of you Wiccans and Pagans and I just know that you will ALL have a COW!!  

SHE CAN'T DO THAT!! She's not being open minded!  NO, the simple fact of the matter is it's just not the 'cool' thing to be Catholic.  It's 'cool' to be Wiccan tho.  It's cool to prance around with a coven and make spells out in the woods on a full moon! Now, THAT'S NEAT and make no mistake, me and every one else around are EXPECTED to respect your faith.  


Respect mine and I'll respect yours, but as for now I haven't seen very much.  

1)  I was indeed raised Catholic, but I do not now nor have I ever "pulled punches"  As I said, I was taught much better than that.  I went to the Papal Mass during the World Youth event held here in Toronto in 2002 because I still have a great deal of respect for the Throne of Peter even though I no longer practice Catholism nor consider myself a Christian.  I also have respect for the man currently sitting on that very throne.  And by the way, it was a very moving experience, to be surrounded by faithful Catholic youths from all over the world.  And they all were singing joyous hymns on the streetcars while they were here in this city.  That puts a smile on the face of anyone after a hard day's work.    

2) I did not convert to Paganism because it was 'cool'.  I converted because it filled a deep void in my soul that the faith of my family did not, even though I still respect that faith.  I have questions about it, yes, I will ask them.  But I do so with honest desire to learn the answer.

3)  I do not prance around with a coven during a full moon making spells in the woods.  I work mostly in my house because I live in a major city and try desparately to keep the cats out of the way.  

4)  I respect the Catholic Faith.  I respect all but the most bile spewing forms of Christianity, and in those cases, its the practicioner that I have no respect for.  I respect the Jewish Faith.  I respect the Muslim faith, but have ZERO respect for the zealots there, same as the Christian zealots.  I respect Buddists of all the various paths, I respect Hindus, I respect African Bush Men.  And so on and so forth.

5)  One's faith should never be 'cool'.  If that is the reason someone is practicing ANY particular faith, they have some serious soul searching to do.

Sorry Hawker, but that post hurt me and angered me as much as the post or posts that you are referring to hurt and angered you.
:-[  

[Vampchick21]

Quote

well for starters it gets your attention if she is trying to do that and show who devestated she is at the state of the world blood would be nearly logical

Well, that would be a good explaination...but I still must wonder, if these particular types of manifestations of the divine are meant to inspire the witnesses and others, meant to comfort, meant to let them know that they are heard, then blood doesn't seem to do that for me.  But that's just me really...I'd find more awe and comfort in say....an Icon that has a spring suddenly gush forth out of nowhere from underneath it...or...that would visbly heal someone that touched it....

[freyjasdottir]

like at Lourdes

[Vampchick21]

That one keeps showing up in the Weekly World News so I tend to avoid it.    I'll have to go and look it all up again, and avoid the weird stuff....

I'll get back to you on that

[aloha_spirit]

In Christianity, any mention of blood is somehow tied into the blood of Jesus.  Through Jesus' sacrifice, we are made at one (the root for atonement) with the Divine.  Through his blood are our garments (figuratively meaning our souls) made white (again, white means pure; it is not a racist remark).

I'm not sure why Mary would cry tears of blood, but I think it goes back to what I typed before.

[freyjasdottir]

I'm looking for some sites for you...

http://www.marypages.com/

this one has a number of links and some related info for your new hobby

http://www.apparitions.org/

[anasuya]

Hey, I dance around with a coven, casting spells in the woods. But, normally, we're all naked. She left that part out. If I take pot shots... I dont' discriminate, and I take shots at EVERY religion, even my own. AFter all, if you can't laugh at yourself, what gives you the right to laugh at anyone else? And I have SERIOUS issues with some pagans, just as I do with some christians/catholics. I don't value the politics of the church, but the teachings of Christ are all right in my book. And yes, I was raised Catholic. As a matter of fact, my enitre family is "born-again". I'm the only heathen.

The crying blood thing I can understand, as blood is seen as life in almost every major tradition in the world today. To see a statue crying blood signifies to me that the spirit is "alive" so to speak. Now... crying milk? I don't get that.

Ana

[hawkerdriver]

My tantrum was a build up from several other topics on this board and others.  The general consensus is that is just not cool to be Catholic nowadays.  As I have posted before, do I subscribe to all the tenets of my faith?  Nope.  Do I see some problems with my religion?  (Notice I said religion, not faith- there's a difference) Yes.  But when I keep my mouth shut and could make fun of you guys because of silliness about your faiths but refrain because I know that I need to 'respect' yours I get a little bent out of shape.  Sorry for the former Catholics who had bad experiences.  I think the Church has failed in educating it's members about several things. One being the history.  Do any of you know why there are two cruets, one with water and one with wine?  The mass is a heavy mixture of two thousands years of tradition and it's fascinating.  
One question to the former Catholics I have is this, have you spent as much energy and time as you have with your new found faith and learned about the 'old' faith?  CCD failed us.  It failed me. But I have grown up and realized it's up to me to really teach myself about my faith, and before I rejected it I educated myself about it which brought about a new respect.  

I find Wicca fascinating.  Always have.  I just threw out that verbal jab with no emotion on my part.  It was just to get across the point I have found lacking around here:  if you're going to jab at any other faith then be ready to take it about yours.  I have always been respectful and interested in Wiccan and Paganism but am tired of the one sidedness.  It's just like being a Catholic among a bunch of Southern Baptists.

Go back and read different posts.  There some out and out blantant prejudice against it.  But then some of you guys are newbies and haven't seen some of the older posts.  Masq, remember Rockhauler's rant?

Aloha said it beautifully. Catholicism is blood based.  Christ was beaten and died a cruel death.  It was bloody.  But that's not what I think was intended by the latest quip.

[hawkerdriver]

I haven't seen anyone take any pot shots at their own faiths.  If you have, please direct me.  I could use some humor.  Humor from the 'inside' is the funniest.

[Vampchick21]

I've not had any bad experiences with my former Catholic religion beyond the nun back in the 7th grade telling me that my menstrual cycle was the result of my empty womb 'weeping'.  And that today I consider the simple ignorance of that one woman, she was well beyond retirement age, and was probably repeating what she had been told at the same age.

Yes, I did take a good long look at Catholism, along with many other faiths.  Where I am today is the result of 17 years of hard work, and I am very happy where I am.  I have no problem with Christianity or Catholism.  It just doesn't 'speak' to me on a spiritual level the way my Celtic based Pagan faith does.  That simple.

I don't care for my faith being considered
'cool'.  Faith and religion should NEVER EVER be 'cool'.  Your spiritual development is not a fad.  

Yes, I know about there being both water and wine at the alter.  Yes, I know how the modern day Mass developed.  I am not ignorant about the religion of my childhood.  I went to Catholic school and as anyone who attended it knows, part of the ciriculum is the study of the religion.  Then in order to be able to attend Public High School, I was made to take a two part course in religion by my father.  To this day I will pick up a book on the history of Christianity and of Catholism because the development is most fascinating.  

Again, I have not now, nor have I ever, taken a pot shot against Catholism or any other religion.  Period.  

As for Pagan/Wiccan humour, here you go.

http://www.fabrisia.com/humor.htm

http://www.turoks.net/cabana/

http://www.ecauldron.../humorindex.php

http://www.geocities...5341/humor.html