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#31 shellas13

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Posted 11 April 2004 - 08:49 AM

Sadly, moon, I don't think so. I just read that thread about Angora's torturing children for witchcraft, and to be honest, I am utterly appalled, ashamed and in near despair for mankind in general right now...

#32 randystreu

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 05:37 AM

actually, the "golden rule" comes from the bible. New Testement.

Being a Christian, I, of course, disagree that the Bible is merely a guide. since the tenents of my particular faith usually require a belief in it as the Word of God.

On a practical level, while you can find Truth almost anywhere, the Bible makes some pretty serious claims about who God is, and who Jesus is to God. My conclusion is that if those claims are false, then what follows is junk. perhaps there are some good thoughts between the lines, but if Jesus isn't the Son of God and the Messiah, then He wasn't such a good guy after all, since He claimed to be just that.

Of course, I think He is.

#33 mellilotflower

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 06:04 AM

I was recently on another website, going through some poetry, and one was entitled "I'm a fish Sandwhich" this was so completely out of character with the rest of the poems which were all doom and gloom or trying to be deep and thoughtfull that I couldn't resist reading it... as it turned out the poem had absolutely nothing to do with fish sandwhiches but it was still a really good poem.  If it had a title actually to do with the poem then I probably wouldn't have read it, and I would be much the worse for it now...

My point being that sometimes, for people to listen to you- you may need to get their attention first.  And Jesus never was one for being a stickler to all the rules and niceties that everyone seems to have been (and still are) hung up on.  He had something to say, and he said it.  Just because the guy pushed a few truths (or maybe others pushed it for him... I could do with quotes) doesn't mean what he said wasn't true.  It's like when you're reading a book, say Harry Potter, we don't believe that there are really wizards and elves and other such things running around, but we believe what the books tell us about love and discrimination and friendship.
Their were plenty of people running around at the time of Jesus who probably said very similar things to him, they may have had a few followers, but they were greatly ignored.  Why, because they were nothing special! they were revolutionaries, tenapenny... now a messiah, that's what everyone wanted.
No offence was intended by any of the above.

The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy because it is beloved of the gods.

Sonnet XCIVBut if that flower with base infection meet,The basest weed outbraves his dignity:For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds

#34 randystreu

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 04:41 AM

no offence taken. but see, you're taking the claim to be a messiah as being very little in the way of a problem. but it is problematic. especially if you believe He died for that claim.

#35 shellas13

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 05:25 AM

Honestly, Randy, I think it's wonderful that you have such a strong sense of faith and I congradulate you on its unwavering belief. I, too, was once Christian, Southern Baptist, in fact, so I DO know quite a bit about the Bible and its teachings. I DO believe that in its pages are wonderful words that people should live their lives by, but its harder for me (now with so many other paths of faiths to follow) to believe that christianity is the ONLY way to go. Everyone wishes to be saved (in this life and the next) and it's a nice to have that confidence that you ARE in whatever religion you profess to believe. I just now think that there's just more than only ONE source tells me. I don't knock Christianity, in fact, think that it has many worthy values, but it's too narrow for me to simply accept as is. But who knows? I've been baptised, taken christ as my savior when I was a teenager, lol, so perhaps I've covered all my bases! J/K! lol ANyhoo, I'm just glad to see faith in any capacity, regardless if it's my own or others. :)

#36 randystreu

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:26 AM

religion in general is an interesting thing. i came to mine both out of family background and as an intellectual decision.

though i still seek knowledge within my faith, nobody will convince me that i'm on the wrong path.

i think it's that way for most people who choose a faith, especially when the decision was intellectual -and- emotional, rather than merely an emotional decision. it's hard to convert the converted.

#37 shellas13

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 11:55 AM

*Can I get an AMEN and an AWOMAN in the house?? ;D*

#38 MoonChild

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 12:19 AM

lol@Shellas ROTF
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#39 Yosei

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 12:13 PM

actually, the "golden rule" comes from the bible. New Testement.

Being a Christian, I, of course, disagree that the Bible is merely a guide. since the tenents of my particular faith usually require a belief in it as the Word of God.

On a practical level, while you can find Truth almost anywhere, the Bible makes some pretty serious claims about who God is, and who Jesus is to God. My conclusion is that if those claims are false, then what follows is junk. perhaps there are some good thoughts between the lines, but if Jesus isn't the Son of God and the Messiah, then He wasn't such a good guy after all, since He claimed to be just that.

Of course, I think He is.



Good to hear a Christian who will acknowledge this fact...I happen not to believe it, so to me the Bible is nothing more than any other book, perhaps some good advice in it here and there, but also a good proportion of BS.  I wouldn't normally be thinking about this, much less posting it, except I had a visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses this morning. I answered the door in a very brief, low cut nightgown, so they left quite soon, but I was rather irritated by the pamphlet they left behind them, with its implication that if I were only to read the Bible I would be immediately converted to their version of the truth.  On the contrary, I *have* read it, probably more thoroughly than many of the people thumping it on street-corners, and that's a good part of why I'm PAGAN.  It simply didn't convince me, and rather reminded me of the story of the publishing editor who returned a manuscript with the words "Your story is both good and original, but unfortunately the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good".
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#40 randystreu

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 04:13 PM

yosei,
of course, it's ridiculous to think that somebody will read the bible and their lives will just do a big 180 and they'll never be the same.

it may happen that way for some, but in reality, i think you have to have a degree of faith -before- the bible means anything to you at all.

#41 RequiemEternum

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 05:32 PM

First off before all, I will state that I do not judge people for their beliefs unless they judge me first. I apologize if I offend anyone with what I am posting here. As far as the Bible goes, I tend to take more of a scientific approach to interpretation. First off, the Bible has been rewritten and retranslated many many times. It is hard to believe that within all this time, there were not misinterpretations-deliberate in some cases perhaps. I am aware that each branch of Christianity has the same general beliefs, but different ways of following them, so I'm not trying to target any one branch, or Christianity as a whole with my statement. However, there are points to where the Bible tends to overlook scientific possibilities or contradict itself in general.
For example, the whole "Adam and Eve and the talking serpent" story. If you look at it scientifically, if Adam and Eve WERE the first humans...they would be like the cavemen of the past eras. Obviously they probably weren't too smart. They say that Satan made the serpent tell Eve to eat from the forbidden tree. I highly doubt that on their level of intelligence that they would know that serpents can't talk. Also, they may not have even known that Satan existed, so they may have thought God was speaking through the serpent. If Adam was first before Eve, it is not stated how God spoke to him. In fact, language did not exist with the first humans, so how could God speak to Adam?
Another example was Moses and the Burning Bush. Moses was wandering through a desert for 40 years. A bush in the middle of the desert could have ignited by means of sunlight. Also, Moses very well could have been delirious from heat and lack of water and started hearing voices.
Another thing to mention was that NONE of the famous holy symbols, whether it be the Ark of Covenant or Noah's Ark were ever PROVEN to exist.
Finally, the Ten Commandments. Primarily "Thou Shalt Not Kill". After that, why are there stories of "God's People" fighting wars and killing others?
The biggest issue is how God is beleived to be perfect. Saint Mark, for example, was accidentally sent to Hell. He began building a Church there before he was kicked out and sent back to Heaven. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The big issue is that "In the end, God's Army will vanquish the evils of the world and all the good people will be saved and evil will be destroyed." But without evil, how can good exist? There would be no way to say what is truly good and what is truly evil without one to counterbalance the other.
On a personal level, I see the Bible as a good guide for Morals. In the Medieval Times, without the Bible's influence, Society would be little more than total anarchy. I believe that Jesus Christ was indeed a great person, who was wise and without a doubt a great spiritual leader. But when I look at it, the idea that he died for our sins would have him spinning in his grave in today's world. I personally have my own beliefs, I do not even consider them a "religion" just a perspective of spirituality. If there is a "God" or superior being, I challenge him to prove his existance before I can follow his teachings. Faith is indeed a good thing for people to have, because it gives them a sense of hope which overcomes the reality of their own lives. I do not speak on behalf of trying to convert or offend anyone with what I have said...I am simply stating my personal opinion on the whole concept in an open-minded manner.
I leave you negative behind...Watch me all in flames, on a butterfly I ride. Exhale the light, rest for some time. The world outside is numb tonight. Open your mind, express the forgotten. The world inside is your's tonight.

#42 Vampchick21

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 07:05 PM

I view most of that stuff as mythology, as in...not to be taken literally.  Just like a good portion of my own myths.  Lessons.  Not meant to be taken as the 'gospel truth'.

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#43 randystreu

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:13 PM

requiem: I can see why you'd say Adam and Eve would be as the cave men. Unfortunately, since we weren't there, and most "human" evolutionary links have been discredited in one way or the other, i think it takes as much faith to believe in cave men.

#44 anasuya

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:38 PM

I'm not aware they've been discredited. I'd love to read some literature on this if you have it. Then again, I suppose science takes a degree of faith as well, but, for the most part, I see no reason to disprove it.

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#45 randystreu

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:49 PM

ana: i'll have to find the literature. as for disproving science, well. true science has three requirements for any phenomena. it must be observable, measurable and repeatable. since evolution and some other theories are none of those things, they are not strictly science (though they are, for some unknown reason, taught as such).

it seems that many of us are just more willing to accept questionable "proof" about some subjects than we are on others.




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