49 replies to this topic

[mooboo]

MoonChild, on Apr 24 2009, 01:29 PM, said:

thought forms arevery powerful, every thought in our mind creates a form,but some of them, which weempower, conciously or not, becomes a form and holds on to the ether. At times, it is virtually impossible to removea well formed through form as well.

You are referring to a "tulpa" moonchild.Those I am very familiar with ...That's not what I thought Morbid meant.
I would actually find it hard to reconcile that all beings we refer to as demons,are creations of a
Magicians mind.

I do not agree with that,if that's what Morbid meant.

[Morbid]

Very true, and the more people you can get to think about your thoughtform, the more energy it's given and the more powerful it becomes.

[MoonChild]

mooboo, on Apr 25 2009, 04:04 AM, said:

You are referring to a "tulpa" moonchild.Those I am very familiar with ...That's not what I thought Morbid meant.
I would actually find it hard to reconcile that all beings we refer to as demons,are creations of a
Magicians mind.

I do not agree with that,if that's what Morbid meant.

I do not know what a Tulpa is all about, I was referingto the human thoughts, the intention behind the thoughts and how the energy works and manifests in the auric shell and eventually into the ether. I am not refering to any demons nor angels.

But, what you do with what you summon totally depends upon the intention that you hold in your mind.

[mooboo]

MoonChild, on Apr 25 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

mooboo, on Apr 25 2009, 04:04 AM, said:

You are referring to a "tulpa" moonchild.Those I am very familiar with ...That's not what I thought Morbid meant.
I would actually find it hard to reconcile that all beings we refer to as demons,are creations of a

Magicians mind.

I do not agree with that,if that's what Morbid meant.

I do not know what a Tulpa is all about, I was referingto the human thoughts, the intention behind the thoughts and how the energy works and manifests in the auric shell and eventually into the ether. I am not refering to any demons nor angels.

But, what you do with what you summon totally depends upon the intention that you hold in your mind.

For Morbid:In my mind,there is a total delineation between ancient demon,and thoughtforms.
I might be prejudiced in this just because of how it was taught to me.

For Moonchild : tulpa are thoughtforms. Its the Tibetan word for them.
I understand that it can be anything that is a thoughtform,but Tulpa are specifically
Humanoid in form.
They are condidered to be one of the most dangerous of Tibetan spiritual practices,and even
a monk doing this,would be crossing a line.
Tulpa are created to do the magicians bidding. They are magical in nature.They can be bid to do anything.
Murder,slaves to the magician,magical works.
It is said that a tulpa is like a growing fetus to the magician,and at some point,they are mature enough
to be "borne". So the tulpa becomes rebellious,and wants its freedom.
This usually ends in a war of wills and bodies, between the tulpa and its creator. The tulpa usually wins,and the
Magician usually is killed .Its the only way the tulpa can be truley free.But once the tulpa rebels,one of them must die.

Tulpa creation is considered a forbidden art by lamas of high order. Masterless tulpa are indeed dangerous.
But they are not spiritform,so to me,they are not demons ,as we classify them.
They are in a category all their own.
I am actually writing a horror movie screenplay about this topic .

[papa midnight]

CrystalEyz, on Apr 11 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

From what I learned IT is known as the demon of lies and guilt. As a Prince of Hell, it commands 80 Legions of Demons and is specifically the prince reigning over the Northern Reaches of Hell, and its said it controls the element of earth and reigns over the Earth demons. So with that said, being the Demon of lies, I dont think anyone would know it's name anyway, because as we know they disguise themselves, and lie. I believe it is one of the most dangerous and violent Demon, and it's name should never be thrown around like Ryan did. Ryan didnt actually say the name, but they flashed it all during his first episode. If what Ryan is stating is true, he shouldnt wonder why it follows him, and if it attached to him, he has no right bringing it into other people's homes. From what I read when the show aired, he actually suffered from sleep paralysis, not a Demonic haunting or presence. But all this remains to be seen. Also from what I learned Demons have no gender, however they can disguise themselves as females for a male target and male for females. They dont deserve to even be discussed, but knowledge is power.JMO..CE:angry:

You know a tremendous amount of informnation about this demon, may I ask are you a voodoo practiciner or do you read tarrot, do ouija? Who is Ryan, is he a member here with a demon problem?I would love to help I have spells for help in controlling and banishing. Papa knows much about demon banishing, I do not like to see anyone hurt!

Papa

[Morbid]

I can see where you're coming from Mooboo, everyone has their own beliefs, and we're all entitled. I was just informing about what a thoughtform in in my "religion".

Papa, Ryan is the lead "ghost hunter" on the show "Paranormal State". He believes that he was attacked and haunted by Belial himself (like belial would have the time to follow random people around) but he believes through some form of work he's gotten rid of him.

[Vampchick21]

A perfect example of thought forms would be the Phillip Experiment that took place right here in Toronto in the 1970's.

http://paranormal.ab...y/aa102201a.htm

http://www.liparanor...om/philip.shtml

As well as a GV thread on it right here

[Morbid]

very Nice vampchick, I never heard of this experiment, I've only read books about the creation and assorted websites, I never knew someone actually documented a (sort of) controlled study. Thanks for posting the sites.

[Shawn333]

I'm going to make an educated guess based on memory of things I've read a long while back. I'd be willing to bet that Belial is simply another one of many corruptions of the term Baal or Ba'al which in the Old Testament, Talmud, and other Jewish writings is generally presented in such a way that it sounds like it's one specific pagan god, but it was actually a title used for numerous gods in the area. Caaninites, Hittites, Sumerians, and even Hebrews etcs...the term is really a title meaning "Lord," or a generic term for god. It was attached in front of many different gods' secondary names. One example would be Ba'al Zebul, the Lord of Heaven. There's evidence that Jews even used the term generically to simply mean god and even used it to reference Yahweh. But as many Jews started worshiping the various other Ba'als and the religions competed, the priests and followers of Yahweh stopped using the term and did little word plays on the names to denigrate them. Such as Beelzebub (Lord of flies) instead of Lord of Heaven, and others meaning "Lord of dung," and other derogatory terms. Why it occurred to me that Belial is probably the same is because it was also used by Jews and Christians in a similar manner, has a derogatory meaning, and sounds like Ba'al.

It's pretty common for competing religions to call other gods demons. Some of the Yahweh followers would have believed the Ba'als were non-existent make believe gods, but some would indeed believe them to be real demons at war with their own god.

Anyway...if Belial isn't a corrupted form of Baal, it's meaning shows it's a corrupted form of something so why would a real, existing and powerful "demon," even answer or acknowledge a false name attributed to him by his detractors? It just doesn't make sense to me personally. Everything else attributed to Belial most likely came from fanciful imagination of early rabbinic writers and later middle age writers who were known for taking one obscure thing from Christian and Jewish literature and expanding on it with ever more and more detailed stories.

[papa midnight]

Shawn333, on Apr 27 2009, 06:09 PM, said:

I'm going to make an educated guess based on memory of things I've read a long while back. I'd be willing to bet that Belial is simply another one of many corruptions of the term Baal or Ba'al which in the Old Testament, Talmud, and other Jewish writings is generally presented in such a way that it sounds like it's one specific pagan god, but it was actually a title used for numerous gods in the area. Caaninites, Hittites, Sumerians, and even Hebrews etcs...the term is really a title meaning "Lord," or a generic term for god. It was attached in front of many different gods' secondary names. One example would be Ba'al Zebul, the Lord of Heaven. There's evidence that Jews even used the term generically to simply mean god and even used it to reference Yahweh. But as many Jews started worshiping the various other Ba'als and the religions competed, the priests and followers of Yahweh stopped using the term and did little word plays on the names to denigrate them. Such as Beelzebub (Lord of flies) instead of Lord of Heaven, and others meaning "Lord of dung," and other derogatory terms. Why it occurred to me that Belial is probably the same is because it was also used by Jews and Christians in a similar manner, has a derogatory meaning, and sounds like Ba'al.

It's pretty common for competing religions to call other gods demons. Some of the Yahweh followers would have believed the Ba'als were non-existent make believe gods, but some would indeed believe them to be real demons at war with their own god.

Anyway...if Belial isn't a corrupted form of Baal, it's meaning shows it's a corrupted form of something so why would a real, existing and powerful "demon," even answer or acknowledge a false name attributed to him by his detractors? It just doesn't make sense to me personally. Everything else attributed to Belial most likely came from fanciful imagination of early rabbinic writers and later middle age writers who were known for taking one obscure thing from Christian and Jewish literature and expanding on it with ever more and more detailed stories.

You are incorrect, Baal is not the same name as Belial, and many names change slightly through the years but are of the same origin. But the name Beelzebub is not the same demon.
Belial means "Without Worth" a very common demon of influence with drug addicted and alcohol addicted people, also demon of lies and guilt, and as far as answering a summons he will answer or send one of his minions, he will answer, do not mistake him for not coming because you don’t say his name as you may think he prefers, to think in such a way is pride and arrogant on a humans part, do not even try human logic when it comes to these creatures this is how trouble with them begins.

Milton distinguishes Belial from Satan, regarding him as the demon of impurity, The Hebrew bible regard his name as a common noun and not a proper name. There is so much information that leads in several directions; I will leave it to the OP to decide where he wishes to follow.

Papa

[Shawn333]

papa midnight, on Apr 29 2009, 01:10 PM, said:

Shawn333, on Apr 27 2009, 06:09 PM, said:

I'm going to make an educated guess based on memory of things I've read a long while back. I'd be willing to bet that Belial is simply another one of many corruptions of the term Baal or Ba'al which in the Old Testament, Talmud, and other Jewish writings is generally presented in such a way that it sounds like it's one specific pagan god, but it was actually a title used for numerous gods in the area. Caaninites, Hittites, Sumerians, and even Hebrews etcs...the term is really a title meaning "Lord," or a generic term for god. It was attached in front of many different gods' secondary names. One example would be Ba'al Zebul, the Lord of Heaven. There's evidence that Jews even used the term generically to simply mean god and even used it to reference Yahweh. But as many Jews started worshiping the various other Ba'als and the religions competed, the priests and followers of Yahweh stopped using the term and did little word plays on the names to denigrate them. Such as Beelzebub (Lord of flies) instead of Lord of Heaven, and others meaning "Lord of dung," and other derogatory terms. Why it occurred to me that Belial is probably the same is because it was also used by Jews and Christians in a similar manner, has a derogatory meaning, and sounds like Ba'al.

It's pretty common for competing religions to call other gods demons. Some of the Yahweh followers would have believed the Ba'als were non-existent make believe gods, but some would indeed believe them to be real demons at war with their own god.

Anyway...if Belial isn't a corrupted form of Baal, it's meaning shows it's a corrupted form of something so why would a real, existing and powerful "demon," even answer or acknowledge a false name attributed to him by his detractors? It just doesn't make sense to me personally. Everything else attributed to Belial most likely came from fanciful imagination of early rabbinic writers and later middle age writers who were known for taking one obscure thing from Christian and Jewish literature and expanding on it with ever more and more detailed stories.

You are incorrect, Baal is not the same name as Belial, and many names change slightly through the years but are of the same origin. But the name Beelzebub is not the same demon.
Belial means "Without Worth" a very common demon of influence with drug addicted and alcohol addicted people, also demon of lies and guilt, and as far as answering a summons he will answer or send one of his minions, he will answer, do not mistake him for not coming because you don’t say his name as you may think he prefers, to think in such a way is pride and arrogant on a humans part, do not even try human logic when it comes to these creatures this is how trouble with them begins.

But these names changed slightly because of detractors not followers or language differences and evolution. Beelzebub is not a demon at all. It's a made up slang term to make fun of a pagan god, Ba'al Zebul. Although I suppose the pagan god could have been a demon in the first place. Their original names didn't have a negative connotation at all. Let me try to give an analogy. Let's say I hated Buddhism (which I don't!) And so instead of calling Buddha, Buddha...I call him Tubby Baldo and say he was a vampire. Now let's say my making fun of him catches on amongst followers of my religion and we outnumber Buddhists. Now 3000 years from now no one remembers Buddha the teacher of peace, instead they remember Tubby Baldo the demonic vampire. Occult groups, even ones that have more in common with original Buddhism than MY religion also start saying that Tubby Baldo is an evil entity and start attributing powers and stories to him that followers of my religion actually made up.

See the problem with this? This is exactly what occult beliefs do to Beelzebub the Lord of the Flies....which is not his name whether he is a demon, demi-god, or non-existent.

Whether Belial is derived from Ba'al or not is irrelevant. I still bet the name Belial itself is a corruption of a gods name that originally had a positive meaning, not "worthless," or "without worth." The Jews did this all of the time to foreign god names. At the time they did it and wrote those names everyone understood this, that those weren't the real names at all.

If Belial wants to accept a name that makes him worthless and not follow human logic then that's his deal. Maybe I'm being arrogant, but oh well....I have no fear of Belial whether he's real or not. If he is a demon of influence then that sounds weak to me. He lacks power or teeth and so must influence people who probably were headed into addiction from other problems to begin with. All demons are weak and stupid, if they weren't then they would have followers and be gods.

[Shawn333]

Actually I did a little Googling and Belial IS derived from the word Baal. In which case we don't even know which Baal since there were many. So which of the dozens of Baals is now accepting this name that was made up to make fun of him?

[Morbid]

Shawn333, on Apr 30 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

And so instead of calling Buddha, Buddha...I call him Tubby Baldo and say he was a vampire.

Tubby Baldo

[papa midnight]

Shawn333, on Apr 30 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

Actually I did a little Googling and Belial IS derived from the word Baal. In which case we don't even know which Baal since there were many. So which of the dozens of Baals is now accepting this name that was made up to make fun of him?

Actually its not...

wiki

Belial (also Belhor, Baalial, Beliar, Belias , Beliall, Beliel, Bilael, Belu; from Hebrew בְּלִיַּ֫עַל Bəliyyáʻal; also named Matanbuchus, Mechembuchus, Meterbuchus in older scripts) is a demon in the Bible, Christian apocrypha and Jewish apocrypha, and also a term used to characterize the wicked or worthless.

The etymology of the word is uncertain, but is most commonly translated as "without worth".[1] Some scholars translate it from Hebrew as "worthless" (Beli yo'il), while others translate it as "yokeless" (Beli ol), "may have no rising" (Belial) or "never to rise" (Beli ya'al). Only a few etymologists have assumed it to be a proper name from the start.[2] In the Book of Jubilees, uncircumcised heathens are called "sons of Belial".

In the Goetia, Belial is said to be very respectful. Belial is also the demon of lies and guilt. As a Prince of Hell, he commands 80 Legions of Demons and is specifically the Prince reigning over the Northern Reaches of Hell. His General and Bride Avaira is the general of these legions and of the Harposh Army. He controls the element of earth and reigns over the Earth demons

[Shawn333]

papa midnight, on Apr 30 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

Shawn333, on Apr 30 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

Actually I did a little Googling and Belial IS derived from the word Baal. In which case we don't even know which Baal since there were many. So which of the dozens of Baals is now accepting this name that was made up to make fun of him?

Actually its not...

wiki

Belial (also Belhor, Baalial, Beliar, Belias , Beliall, Beliel, Bilael, Belu; from Hebrew בְּלִיַּ֫עַל Bəliyyáʻal; also named Matanbuchus, Mechembuchus, Meterbuchus in older scripts) is a demon in the Bible, Christian apocrypha and Jewish apocrypha, and also a term used to characterize the wicked or worthless.

The etymology of the word is uncertain, but is most commonly translated as "without worth".[1] Some scholars translate it from Hebrew as "worthless" (Beli yo'il), while others translate it as "yokeless" (Beli ol), "may have no rising" (Belial) or "never to rise" (Beli ya'al). Only a few etymologists have assumed it to be a proper name from the start.[2] In the Book of Jubilees, uncircumcised heathens are called "sons of Belial".

In the Goetia, Belial is said to be very respectful. Belial is also the demon of lies and guilt. As a Prince of Hell, he commands 80 Legions of Demons and is specifically the Prince reigning over the Northern Reaches of Hell. His General and Bride Avaira is the general of these legions and of the Harposh Army. He controls the element of earth and reigns over the Earth demons

For the sake of argument I'll agree with you that the etymology of the word isn't certain and 100% agreed upon. But I'm hardly the only one claiming Belial is probably just derived from Baal. It's all over the net, particularly believed by Jewish bible scholars. A clue is right in your "wiki," post that you cut and pasted to refute my point. You listed Baalial as an alternate spelling of Belial yourself and Baalial is a compound of Baal and 'ial that probably means "Lord of arrogance and pride." It's yet another one of those purposeful corruptions I keep talking about. Then you have a further sort of "pun" if you will from classical Hebrew to the later used Aramaic making it possibly having a duel meaning of "worthless," as well. Just a word play and a slur on some god whose followers didn't think was a demon at all.

The problem with tracing the origin is probably further compounded by the transliteration of the word from Hebrew to Greek to English as I believe the Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts are where we get the English "Baal," from and Greek New Testament and later Talmud manuscripts is where we get "Belial," from. But that thought could totally be wrong because again I'm just guessing and being too lazy to look things up or research it further.