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Astrology doesn't work


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#1 rustypouch

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 12:02 PM

I found an article about the ineffectiveness of astrology here.
http://www.telegraph...requestid=84971
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Good news for rational, level-headed Virgoans everywhere: just as you might have predicted, scientists have found astrology to be rubbish.

For several decades, researchers tracked more than 2,000 people - most of them born within minutes of each other. According to astrology, the subject should have had very similar traits.


Researchers looked at more than 100 different characteristics, including occupation, anxiety levels, marital status, aggressiveness, sociability, IQ levels and ability in art, sport, mathematics and reading - all of which astrologers claim can be gauged from birth charts.

The scientists failed to find any evidence of similarities between the "time twins", however. They reported in the current issue of the Journal of Consciousness Studies: "The test conditions could hardly have been more conducive to success . . . but the results are uniformly negative."


"It has no acceptable mechanism, its principles are invalid and it has failed hundreds of tests," he said. "But no hint of these problems will be found in astrology books which, in effect, are exercises in deception."


So a study involving more than 2000 people and taking over forty years found no connection between the time of birth and personality traits.

How can anyone continue to believe that astrology works when faced with evidence such as this?

#2 MoonChild

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Posted 18 August 2003 - 08:25 PM

does anything work? even the food we eat doesn't serve the purpose these days! and know what? Astrology is based on complex mathematical calculations and incase something goes wrong, I mean to say, probably a degree of difference or something like that, it may not work. My belief is that Astrology is only a sign post. If we can read and prepare ourself, the better. When the times are good and if we don't ACT properly, times sure will be troublesome. Same way, when the times are bad and if we can use out logic (if at all we have some) and reason, and do the appropriate ACTIONS, times sure can be made better.

After all IT IS ALL IN OUR MIND!

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#3 Gregory

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 04:08 PM

I don't care what astronomy was based on, or how complex these alleged equations were.  Astronomy is still bunk.

But to answer rustypouch's question: because everyone wants to know the future, and some people will latch onto any system that promises them that knowledge.
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#4 reprise

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 12:42 AM

I don't care what astronomy was based on, or how complex these alleged equations were. †Astronomy is still bunk.

But to answer rustypouch's question: because everyone wants to know the future, and some people will latch onto any system that promises them that knowledge.



???

I think astronomy is pretty much accepted to be a legitimate science.

#5 Bangin

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 06:20 AM

???

I think astronomy is pretty much accepted to be a legitimate science.


I think Gregory obviously made a mistake while typing.  

I have to agree with Gregory, it's bunk.  I've never really understood the effectiveness of astrology.  The information that rustypouch has posted confirms that astrology lacks usefulness.
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#6 strigoi

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 01:45 PM

i think it's more than a novelty than anything. its not a way to predict the future as well as scrying etc. i do have my sign tattoo'ed on my arm though   ;D

#7 flyingorb

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 04:09 PM

If it gives someone comfort to believe that the future can be foretold through astrology, I see no harm to it.  A believer may be the involved factor that makes it come true for them, somewhat like a self fullfilling prophesy.  If it is positive and helps someone believe in themselves, its good.

Myself, I believe that we are set on a path before birth.  It is our choice to make the journey, or not, and how we conduct ourselves during the journey.

Astrology?  I don't think so. ::)
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#8 strigoi

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:08 PM

i dont think you can use it to tell the future accuratly , but i believe people that are born under the sign have similar characteristics.

#9 reprise

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:12 PM

If it gives someone comfort to believe that the future can be foretold through astrology, I see no harm to it.  A believer may be the involved factor that makes it come true for them, somewhat like a self fullfilling prophesy.  If it is positive and helps someone believe in themselves, its good.


Do you see the physical, emotional, and financial problems which occur if people start making major life decisions based on the certainty that their astrologer can accurately predict the future as being harmless?

#10 Gregory

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:29 PM

Astrology definitely has the potential to harm those who take it too seriously.  The following link, for example, essentially suggests that you base your entire life (where you live, who you marry, what job you take, and more) on astrology.  You could ruin your life following that advise.

http://www.astrology...trology.302.htm


Dr. Allan Chapman of Oxford opines:

"Astrology is harmful. I know of many who rule their lives by it and wouldn't do anything without consulting their astrologer. It's dangerous on two levels: for those people using it to make decisions on world affairs, and for the ordinary person who feels a slave to the planets. It plays to the most vulnerable and fatalistic."

(http://homepages.tcp...ng/astrlgy.html)


And from http://www.soulheali...mber99astro.htm :

"One well-known astrologer told a client of mine, 'because you have Saturn in your 7th house, relationships will never work for you, so don't even try.'"

"... Stephen Arroyo states that 'all people with Saturn in a fixed sign are selfish.'" [this is one third of the Earth's population, apparently]
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#11 MoonChild

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 01:32 AM

What is Vedic Astrology?
"You do and undo your destiny. You are your own architect. A person who truly believes in Karma has no words such as 'fate' or 'destiny' in his lexicon. He believes in making his own destiny through his words, deeds and thoughts..."

Vedic Astrology refers to Indian or Hindu astrology, a system that originated in ancient India, and was documented by sages in the Vedic scriptures. Also known as "Jyotish" -- the science of light, Vedic astrology deals with astral light patterns that are thought to determine our destiny.

What is Astrology?
Astrology is the science of the effects of planetary movements on our lives. Astrology is based on astronomy, and astrologers need to know the correct positions of the planets at any given time, as well as the correct positions of the zodiacal fixed star signs in relation to any place on earth at any given time. Once the correct positions of the signs and planets are known, astrologers can construct charts representing these positions. And using his knowledge, the astrologer can study the charts and can make a wide range of conclusions about the moment the chart was cast for. Primarily, astrology is used to understand one's self, and our karma for this life.

Basic Principle
The basic premise of this astrology is that all things are linked. Your karma or fortune is determined by a predestined cosmic design. You are a soul incarnating in a body at a very specific time and place, and your life is a reflection of the greater whole into which you are born just as flowers bloom at certain times, say during spring time, when all conditions are perfectly congenial. So is the case with our births on this palnet.

What are Charts?
In Jyotish, the main item is your chart. It's a map of the planets in the signs of the zodiac. Charts are cast based on an exact moment at an exact place on earth. Therefore, the moment you were born and the place you were born has a chart, and that is your "birth chart" or "natal chart".

By reading the chart of the heavens for the time and place of your birth, claim astrologers, they can know much about you. The positions of the planets in the real star-based zodiac are taken and your "dashas" (predictive timeline) are arranged. Your Vedic chart will most likely reflect your real life and your dashas are probably operating the way they should. The Vedic astrologer looks at these planets, signs and house placements in your chart and can "see" your personality, as well as life events and possibilities - both the good and the bad times in your life. The dashas are then used to determine "when" the events will unfold in the life.

Its Predictive Magic
Dashas give a greater predictive accuracy to Vedic astrology than Western astrology. These "planetary ruling periods," which are unique to this system, give Vedic astrologers a tool for quite accurately predicting the trends, changes and events in your life with amazing precision. Therefore, Vedic astrologers are less limited to talking about your general overall self and can get more deeply into what's going to happen in your life.

How is it Different from Western Astrology?
Vedic astrology differs from Western or Tropical astrology mainly in that it uses the fixed zodiac as opposed to the moving zodiac. Because of the gradual tilting of the earth in space on its axis, the zodiac, if you calculate it from the sun's relationship to the earth, appears to be moving at the rate of a little less than 1/60th of a degree per year. Currently, the relative or movable zodiac is off or out of alignment with the fixed or real star-based zodiac by roughly 23 degrees, which is almost one whole sign of the zodiac. Because the two systems are skewed from each other by nearly one whole sign, most people's "Sun Sign", that which you can get from the newspaper each day, is usually one sign back when the chart is refigured using Vedic astrology. So, the first surprise of using the Vedic system is that you are no longer the Sun Sign you always thought you were. However, if you were born in the last 5 days or so of the Western sign month, then you will probably still be the same sign in the Vedic system.
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#12 Gregory

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 08:50 AM

Its Predictive Magic
Dashas give a greater predictive accuracy to Vedic astrology than Western astrology. These "planetary ruling periods," which are unique to this system, give Vedic astrologers a tool for quite accurately predicting the trends, changes and events in your life with amazing precision. Therefore, Vedic astrologers are less limited to talking about your general overall self and can get more deeply into what's going to happen in your life.


All the evidence I have seen indicates that Western Astrology doesn't work at all.  You have evidence that Vedic astrology does?
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#13 chesta

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 03:32 PM

First off I don't know **** about astrology or support it but I wonder if skeptics are remotely skeptical about this study since the conclusions probably fit nicely into a lot of thier beliefs. †I really question how objective a study is that would draw up such conclusions. †In parapsychology experiments that turn up possitive results are analyzed and criticized by skeptics even if there is no indication of improper controls. †Do skeptics question the credibility of the scientists involved and their methods of investigating given these conclusions?

Whoever did this is jumping to conclusions because of this but what happened to experiments/studies needing to be replicated over and over again? †If this study were to provide any kind of evidence against astrology right now there is insuffient information about the credibility of the researchers and their methods for critical analysis before this should be considered. † †

From the first line it says:

Good news for rational, level-headed Virgoans everywhere: just as you might have predicted, scientists have found astrology to be rubbish.

Wishfull thinking? †If not why would it supposedly being debunked be good news? †With that statement it sounds like it turned up the results that they wanted indicating possibly biased research. †This also seems to be some egotistical nonsence since they are indicating that level-headed and rational people are the ones who dis-believe astrology. †† †

All the evidence I have seen indicates that Western Astrology doesn't work at all. †You have evidence that Vedic astrology does?


Actually there is probably no amount of evidence that could prove it doesn't work because you can't prove a negative. †A lack of evidence still is very bad for astrology but just that does nothing to prove or disprove it. †I have no idea about any evidence for astrology though. †
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. Ė Carl Jung

#14 Gregory

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 05:34 PM

I wonder if skeptics are remotely skeptical about this study since it probably fits into a lot of thier beliefs.  I really question how objective a study is that would draw up such conclusions.  In parapsychology experiments that turn up possitive results are analyzed and criticized by skeptics even if there is no indication of improper controls.  Do skeptics question the credibility of the scientists involved and their methods of investigating given these conclusions?

Iím skeptical of every study I read; itís good practice.  I canít speak for other skeptics, but Iím sure that many (hopefully most) of them are the same.

Wishfull thinking?  If not why would it supposedly being debunked be good news?  With that statement it sounds like it turned up the results that they wanted indicating possibly biased research.  This also seems to be some egotistical nonsence since they are indicating that level-headed and rational people are the ones who dis-believe astrology.


Every researcher goes into an experiment with some sort of bias.  Itís impossible to care strongly about most issues without developing some sort of bias, and researchers donít do experiments on subjects that they donít care about.  If the experiment was performed properly, however, bias will not be allowed to influence the results.  And the person youíre accusing of egotistical nonsense is the author of the article, not the scientists, so Iím not sure how it factors in.

Actually there is probably no amount of evidence that could prove it doesn't work because you can't prove a negative.  A lack of evidence still is very bad for astrology but just that does nothing to prove or disprove it.  I have no idea about any evidence for astrology though.


I hear that you canít prove a negative a lot.  Itís practically a clichť, but I donít think itís true.  We prove negatives all the time in physics (Newtonís Laws of Motion do not work under certain conditions), medicine (drug x does not cure symptom z), biology (insects of certain sizes cannot exist under ordinary circumstances in Earthís gravity), and just about every other field of knowledge.
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#15 chesta

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 06:09 PM

Iím skeptical of every study I read; itís good practice. †I canít speak for other skeptics, but Iím sure that many (hopefully most) of them are the same.

That's good to hear.  I've noticed that a lot of believers/skeptics are only critical of this sort of thing with opposing views from their own.  Since some skeptics spend so much time trying to debunk the paranormal you would hope that they would apply the same questioning and doubt the something that may support thier world views.  With both sides it's all fun to criticize the other side but people don't seem to apply the same criticism to their own views and some tend to get upset when others become critical of their beliefs.      

Every researcher goes into an experiment with some sort of bias. †Itís impossible to care strongly about most issues without developing some sort of bias, and researchers donít do experiments on subjects that they donít care about. †If the experiment was performed properly, however, bias will not be allowed to influence the results. †And the person youíre accusing of egotistical nonsense is the author of the article, not the scientists, so Iím not sure how it factors in.


That is true that there is probably bias in most experiments since every scientist has it in their interests to prove what they are investigating but it shouldn't influence the results if they have any validity.  If those views were from the scientists then this experiment sould lose all credibility.  Whoever wrote and influnced the article was clearly not objective and belief based but for the sake of the researchers involved hopefully it's not them.  The information about the credibility of this and their methods is still insuficient because it can't be anaylyzed to determine if it was a proper experiment.    

I hear that you canít prove a negative a lot. †Itís practically a clichť, but I donít think itís true. †We prove negatives all the time in physics (Newtonís Laws of Motion do not work under certain conditions), medicine (drug x does not cure symptom z), biology (insects of certain sizes cannot exist under ordinary circumstances in Earthís gravity), and just about every other field of knowledge.


For something like this there could possibly be some evidence that may come against it but I doubt there is any way to completely dispove it, there may always be some angle or reason to still believe in astrology nomatter what evidence might go against it.  A example is with God since God is something that you can't provide any solid evidence for at this point or disprove.  
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. Ė Carl Jung




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