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The Premier Skeptic- James Randi


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#31 flyingorb

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 03:46 AM

Hi chesta,

If you have had out-of-body experiences, I would love to know what happened from separation from body, anything unusual you saw, and the return.  If you don't want to post for all on the Skeptics Board, please IM me.  I'm really interested in your experiences. :)
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#32 chesta

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 05:07 AM

Hi flyingorb,

I have had several OBEs and have experienced some interesting stuff with them but I'm glad that I starting practicing it.  

If you mean at separation when separating from the body it can be scary (but not dangerous or painful) it's very physically felt.  There are a large number of sensations that come on like usually your whole body starts vibrating, you feel all kinds of energy, and most of the time there are odd rumbling and metallic noises, ect.  You separate by either floating out or my favorite way is to roll out of body just like I'm getting out of bed.  

Once out most of it is hard to describe and put in words but I'll try.  Usually when you first get on of body you’re in what's called an etheric projection (into the physical world) you can view things here as they are but it usually lasts about 10-30 seconds.  Movement is usually for me hard and I sometimes get vision problems.  Most people soon slip into an astral projection which is beyond the physical and just another level of existence.  There stuff might look similar to here in places but not always the same but there is a lot more freedom there.  

I've had all kinds of odd things happen to me like 360 vision, becoming conscious in more then 1 mind, seeing out of 2 sets of eyes, what I think was 4-d viewing, plus a lot more.  There have even been a couple occasions where I identified remote objects that my conscious and subconscious mind couldn't have possibly perceived prior to that from the physical.  Another thing about being out of body for me is I always have all 5 senses that seem even stronger.  I also feel like I'm so much more alive then in the physical but it's certainly more real.    

My favorite thing to do is exploring because there astral is a huge place with many different areas and interesting locations.  I've seen heaven and hell like regions.  Everything that that exists and happens in the physical also happens there plus a whole lot more.  The best part about being out of body is there is no limit to what you can do so I'm having a lot of fun with it now.      

At the return it’s easy to get back because all you have to do is think about your body and your back in an instant.  I usually try to come back to my room and slip back into my body which makes it easier to bring the memory of the experience back.  Sometimes when out your body will start pulling at you to come back but I can occasionally stop that by grabbing onto something.  

Let me know if you have any more questions about it.    
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. – Carl Jung

#33 Jeff Belanger

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 05:09 AM

In case you missed it, here is my interview with James Randi.

http://www.ghostvill..._06282003.shtml
Have you read these books?
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There will be a quiz...

#34 Freda

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 07:46 AM

Hi Chesta,

Can I please ask what you do to enable yourself to leave your body ?  I am really interested to learn how it is done.

I have only had a similar experience on one occasion, and though I would love to have it all again, was more or less 'knocked back'. I got right to the point of going through the colours and down the tunnel three times the following Monday, and each time when it got to a certain point the experience stopped and I was looking at a wall of bright light.

When I queried it from someone whose work I greatly respected because he had helped me through various stages of development, he was told that it had been stopped because at that moment in time, I would not have wanted to come back, and I still had a lot of work to do for spirit.

A month after Jim had passed away, I was sat knitting with my feet on a pouffe and the TV turned on.  I suddenly felt so tired, and seeing the time was only 8.45pm, I thought I would close my eyes for ten minutes. Putting my knitting on my knees, eyes closed, I saw a brilliant purple with my third eye, as if it was floating towards me.  Suddenly the motion changed and it began moving away from me,  a small black spot appeared in the middle of it which started to get bigger and, as it did my body started vibrating.  It really felt as if I was literally shaking.

At the same time, my perception mentally, was really heightened as if I absolutely KNEW what was happening - for my last conscious thought was - "well this is it and I'm not bothered".  I just went with the flow - and felt myself spinning down this dark tunnel (that the hole had become) at a great speed. I came to at exactly 10 o'clock.  I do not remember anything in between from 8.45, except the brilliant light that I had gravitated to, and the love that I had experienced.

When I say love, I don't talk of the love of a man and woman, but an all encompassing love.

Since that day I have never had a fear of death, and I honestly can't wait to go - it is a standing joke with my family and friends, especially when spirit pass on the message - not yet you have a lot of work to do - constantly.  They know of my desire.

The experience was spontaneous and I had not been thinking of anything to bring it about. Yes, Jim had only been gone a month and if I had known about it I probably would not have wanted to come back .... they were so right.

It was quite a while before I realised that the 'tunnel' was my spirit actually moving up my body  and out of the top of my head via the crown chakra.  It was the chakras that were doing the vibrating.

Regards
Freda
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#35 chesta

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 08:20 AM

Hi Freda,

There are tons of ways to bring on OBEs.  It's basically done by trying to keep your mind awake while your body is completely asleep and at that point there are different methods of bringing on the separation.  It's sort of like meditating while falling asleep.  There are also ways of getting out of body from dreams and lucid dreams.  Relaxation is the most important thing.  It does take some practice and the time to acheive OBEs vary for each individual for me it took 3 weeks of practice to have my first experience with it.  Here are some good links to check out that explain it and how to bring it on:  

www.spiritonline.com/files/messages/15/15.html
www.astraldynamics.com/guides/oobe/oobe.htm
www.mysticweb.org/phps/netclasses/
http://mailbox.univi...sh/engindex.htm
www.jonasridgeway.com/
www.robertpeterson.org/obebook.html
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. – Carl Jung

#36 Freda

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 09:20 AM

Hi Chesta,

Many thanks for the recommended sites - it will take me a month of Sundays to go through them all, but I have printed three lots out and will go and study them soon - the rest I will visit and have further print-outs over a few days.

I have to say that the ones I have skimmed through hold a mine of information and seem very interesting. One brought back memories of an experience when I was a child deleting the theory that I had only had one such event happen.

We used to live quite close to an old Norman Castle and I recall one night being up near the gates, as if I was flying.  It wasn't very dark - just as if there was a good full moon. I couldn't understand how I had got there, and I could see this silver cord behind me going back into the house.  I had a momentarily bout of panic wondering how I was going to get back in through the window which was closed.  Very swiftly I found myself back in the bedroom hovering over the bed, and whoosh  into my body with a hard bang ... yet I never woke up.

I am going to enjoy working my way through this lot even if I don't attempt projection for a while.

Glad I dropped in your way - thanks again.

regards
Freda
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#37 Freda

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 09:32 AM

I must have been a skeptic all along and didn't know it !

My thoughts have always been sceptical that he would let go of any money - it seems to be a JR publicity stunt - with only the great man himself winning every time; besides it won't be in his interests to have someone pass his tests - wouldn't it make him jobless?

If anything is to be tested, it needs being done under controlled conditions and by people better qualified than JR.

( Didn't he use to play the 'rogue' in Dallas too - JR ?  ) ;D :)
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#38 chesta

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 12:58 PM

I just noticed on the first page the thing about Randi's article and JE cheating.  This response from the scientist involved with the experiment addresses Randi's accusations about that and his column:

http://www.survivals...torandi-1.shtml

The experiment is shown here, there is also a critique from Ray Hyman with CSICOP and the experimenter’s responses to that:

http://www.openmindsciences.com/

Here are a few quotes from the letter on that first link about JE cheating:

VERITAS - The video clip shows John possibly looking through a crack that is less than 1/4 inch wide (not the 2 inches reported in Randi's misinformed comments in the Times of London). Randi has not seen the raw footage. If he did, he would discover that the reading is done with John (and the other mediums) facing the cameras - therefore, they could not see the sitter while they were doing a reading. Randi selects a single frame and then seemingly gleafully dismisses hours of recordings.

VERITAS - All media who come to the lab have seen the raw footage. So have magicians, visiting scientists, and others. Randi could have come to the lab, he could have come to the conference. Instead, he complains that we do not give him the raw data. Given all the misinformation presented by Randi above, can anyone blame us?

We told Randi he should come to the lab, and we would film him watching the raw video, and then film him commenting on the data. We also invited him to try to be a medium, and see if he can do as well as our mediums can. Randi declined both offers.


http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. – Carl Jung

#39 JimTheBrit

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 07:44 PM

Freda besides it won't be in his interests to have someone pass his tests - wouldn't it make him jobless?

Only if, on the JREF award being won, every single huckster, charlatan, victim of self deceit and pseudoscientific claim on the planet disappear.

If anything is to be tested, it needs being done under controlled conditions and by people better qualified than JR.

Reader correspondence:"James Randi is not qualified to test anything."
Randi responds: "Perhaps not. But in any case, we always call in experts approved by all concerned. Qualified experts." Source

Randi again: "Our list of advisors [include] very substantial and eminent scientific authorities [who are] on hand to provide the advice and specialization we require."
Source

So why is the JREF's input valuable in the testing of paranormal claims?

Randi: "in scientific research where human chicanery might be the modus operandi, an experienced magician can be out of great advantage, if allowed to participate and to help design the protocol. " Source

Randi:"Scientists are human beings, too, and can be deceived and self-deceived. We at the JREF are skilled in two directions: we know how people are fooled by others, and we know how people fool themselves." Source

#40 JimTheBrit

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 08:23 AM

chesta I just noticed on the first page the thing about Randi's article and JE cheating.  This response from the scientist involved with the experiment addresses Randi's accusations about that and his column:
http://www.survivals...torandi-1.shtml


A very interesting article, and one that I'll be looking further into. Note that the actual Randi commentary referred to is March 23, 2001.

Edited to add link and advise that readers save any articles they think interesting from the survivalscience.org site - I've heard it may be closing soon.

#41 reprise

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 06:41 PM

I just want to remind people that the prize-money for the $1 million challenge was not donated to JREF by James Randi (he gets somewhat irritable when people get this information wrong).

#42 Freda

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 03:37 AM

So, is it from JREF or from Randi ?

I am sure I have read somewhere that it isn't really his own money he has put forward - wherever it is deposited.
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#43 JimTheBrit

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 11:08 AM

So, is it from JREF or from Randi ?

I am sure I have read somewhere that it isn't really his own money he has put forward - wherever it is deposited.


Freda – are you asking if it is offered by Randi or the JREF ..........

Randi:
“That's not "my" million, either. Please don't refer to it that way. It's owned by the JREF, a 501©3 charity under the law.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that any test could be "fudged," if that term means that the test might be "rigged" in favor of the JREF.

Read the terms of the challenge, and the posted discussions, and that will become evident.

The JREF is firmly, legally, obligated and constrained by the rules, the published offers, and the structure of the organization. We have no control over who may or may not apply for the prize, nor is there any way that we could refuse to pay the prize if it were to be won legitimately. And, I'll add, don't jump on that term,"legitimately" as an "out" we may resort to. No tests take place until complete agreement has been reached between the applicant and the JREF, and we are both bound by that agreement.

There have been many claims made that the test(s) have been passed, and the prize won; these are all false. Challenged to provide evidence of those claims, the accusers have all suddenly vanished.” Source

..... or whether the $1,000,000 prize was pledged either by Randi or the JREF?

“Randi first challenged professed practitioners of the paranormal in 1968, offering $1,000 to anybody who could prove they have psychic powers. No one claimed it. So he upped the prize to $10,000, then to $1 million. It wasn't real money at first, just an amount pledged by hard-nosed skeptics from around the world. Then "a very wealthy gentleman in one of the northern states" made a donation of $1 million to Randi's cause. The money now sits in an investment account in New York City, collecting interest while Randi fields calls from potential contenders.”
Source (not a great one – contact Randi directly or raise the question during his weekly webcast for a first hand account)

Regards,
Jim.

#44 Freda

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:33 AM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for answering the question - but who is the principle of JREF and it was a bit 'canny' of the old man to ensure that he didn't have to fork out then - perish the thought of anyone ever trying to claim to prize,  :( ( they probably would have more luck raising the dead or the Titanic after all ) :)

Randi:"Scientists are human beings, too, and can be deceived and self-deceived. We at the JREF are skilled in two directions: we know how people are fooled by others, and we know how people fool themselves." Source


No matter how skilled they are at JREF - they too are still humans - and are susceptible to the same flaws as all other humans. Or, are we to take from this quote of - Source - that somehow those at JREF have  been improved genetically different from us mere mortals ?

I am sorry, I do not wish to appear rude to anyone and I hope I don't offend either but somehow it doesn't sound as if believers are the only ones who appear to have been brainwashed - so do the other side - the skeptics.  We are constantly being told to question in order to learn, yet when we do any questioning we are in a sense shot down -- it is all very  ???

Regards
Freda
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#45 reprise

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:56 PM

I'll see if I can dig up the thread in which Linda last posted the balance of the Challenge account.  Like all JREF funds, the Challenge account is independently audited - the details of the current balance of the account were confirmed by the auditors when they were recently sent to Larry King and Sylvia Browne.

As I've pointed out before, JREF isn't the only organisation offering money to those who can demonstrate paranormal ability.

Nor is the offering of such sums unique to metaphysics, as the $7 million set aside for those who find solutions to the Millennium Prize Problems indicates.




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