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Skeptics,Believers, What happens when you die?


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#16 flyingorb

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 04:00 AM

Aye, good points, but if we are extinguished at our demise all becomes an exercise in futility.

For those confused by this thread, try a little experiment.  Try to imagine the state of nonexistance. No stray thoughts, no pain, love, hopes, no input and nothing to consider.  Just nonexistance..................................................................

Whew! that would be hell!
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#17 reprise

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 04:58 AM

Aye, good points, but if we are extinguished at our demise all becomes an exercise in futility.

For those confused by this thread, try a little experiment.  Try to imagine the state of nonexistance. No stray thoughts, no pain, love, hopes, no input and nothing to consider.  Just nonexistance..................................................................

Whew! that would be hell!


I'm curious why you think that our lives are futile if our existence ends with bodily death, flying orb.

Conversely, is there something in particular which you believe that makes immortality of the spirit non-futile?

What if existence has no purpose whatsoever, whether in the bodily world or the spiritual realm?

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 12:54 PM

Hi reprise,

If there is no learning and growing with the mistakes and experiences of this life, why bother to aspire to be better than ourselves at all?  Why not sink to the lowest common denominator and into total self indulgence and pleasure.  If we only have a few short years and then ....nothing, why care about others at all?

Of course civilization itself would self destruct under those circumstances.

Myself, I prefer to believe that we all are a reflection of the Living God, and as such are immortal, at least our souls are and that we learn by incarnating over and over again to truly understand others and ourselves too.

The purpose of this as opposed to extinction and futility?

The hope that when we truly understand and love others, we might be able to finally touch the face of our Creator.

Yes, reprise, we can't actually know till we cross over, but with all due respect my friend- I really hope your wrong.. :)

Gosh, if your right I'll never know it will I? *snicker* ;D

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 12:55 PM

I posted the above reprise- just can't stay logged in.......


Flyingorb

Dennis :)

#20 reprise

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 02:22 PM

Again, I understand your reasoning flyingorb but not only believers in a divine being or believers in some kind of continued existence after bodily death seek to learn and grow.  I am motivated to learn and grow in order to enhance my experience of this life, not in order to prepare for the rewards of, or avoid punishment, in the next.

You might have noticed that I quite regular start threads on skeptic messageboards with the theme "which paranormal claim do you wish was legitimate?"  Far more often than not, the top two answers are 1)some kind of continued existence after bodily death, and 2)faith/psychic healing.

While I'm in the "truly don't care what happens to us after we die" camp of skeptics, many, many others are in the "I'd like to believe that some essential element of me (or more often, those whom I have loved) persists beyond bodily death, but I cannot find any evidence in support of that belief)" camp.

I hope that those who believe in a biblical God are wrong - eternity seems an awful long time to be at the mercy of the tyranny the "good book" tells suggests this being exhibits.

#21 flyingorb

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 03:03 PM

HEY it works again!!!!  A note to those experiencing difficulties logging in, make sure your browser is set to accept cookies.  Thats the cause of the problem I experienced earlier.

Hi reprise,

Of course you are right that learning and growth are not limited to those expecting rewards/punishment in the next life.  Many times the motivation is from within, not some external force.

Please remember that belief in a Living God does not necessarily mean a belief in the Bible, or eternal reward/damnation either.  Belief is what it is for each of us.  Faith in any religion is what strenghens one when contemplating their ultimate unavoidable demise.  I respect what you believe, but forgive me if I wish you well and hope that sometime after we both cross over perhaps we can laugh together about survival after death.
CRY HAVOK! Let Slip The Chihuahuas Of War.....When an ORB dies.......a Chihuahua is born!

#22 rustypouch

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 03:09 PM

Hi Rustypouch,

Of course I respect your opinion, but don't you think we are more than the tissues that compose us?  

Science cannot explain something as simple as why we think and while they can combine some amino acids in a controlled environment, they cannot create life either.  The unknowns are greater in number than the knowns when explaining life.  In the void created by the unknown, we must try to reason what is and what is not.  I believe that we are more than our component parts, that whether you call it mind, or soul, there is something extra that makes us what we are.  Rustypouch, eventually we both will find out for sure! *LOL* :o



I have a few things to say to this:

Firstly, science is nothing more than a method for gathering information.  The amount that is known about our universe is constantly growing, and it is reasonalbe to assume that the answers to these and other questions will eventually be known.

Because how something works is unknown, why must you assume supernatural origins?

Next, why do believe that we are more than are component parts?  What lead you to this conclusion, what evidence do you have to support this position?

Finally, I would very much like to know the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything, but I prefer to wait for a reasoned explaination rather than embracing superstition,

#23 reprise

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 03:44 PM

A current JREF thread which people might find interesting

If you were religious...

BTW flyingorb, I don't find differing opinions a problem.  If skeptics have a "mission" which motivates them, it is not to prove ourselves "right", it is to find the truth about questions which are as yet unresolved whatever that truth may be.  :)

#24 flyingorb

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 03:46 PM

Hi Rustypouch!

By RustypouchQUOTE I have a few things to say to this:  

Firstly, science is nothing more than a method for gathering information.  The amount that is known about our universe is constantly growing, and it is reasonalbe to assume that the answers to these and other questions will eventually be known. -QUOTE


Even though knowledge is increasing at an incredable rate.  Technology/science often produces more problems than it solves.  Left to our own devices, we may not survive as a species long enough to understand even part of the universe.

Rustypouch-Because how something works is unknown, why must you assume supernatural origins?


I don't


Rustypouch-Next, why do believe that we are more than are component parts?  What lead you to this conclusion, what evidence do you have to support this position?

For one thing..you!  A slab of meat did not formulate your ideas, access the internet and post your beliefs.  Whether you want to call it self awareness, or a soul,  You show evidense of being much more than your component parts.  
A second answer to your question would be.........faith

rustypouch-Finally, I would very much like to know the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything, but I prefer to wait for a reasoned explaination rather than embracing superstition,

The beauty of Ghostvillage is that everyone is free to express their own opinion for review and thought by others.  I wish you well rustypouch. :)
CRY HAVOK! Let Slip The Chihuahuas Of War.....When an ORB dies.......a Chihuahua is born!

#25 flyingorb

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 03:54 PM

A current JREF thread which people might find interesting

If you were religious...

BTW flyingorb, I don't find differing opinions a problem.  If skeptics have a "mission" which motivates them, it is not to prove ourselves "right", it is to find the truth about questions which are as yet unresolved whatever that truth may be.  :)


Hi reprise!

Interesting link,  I would encourage villagers to visit it.

The "mission" of skeptics you stated should also be the mission of believers.  It is really the same goal.
CRY HAVOK! Let Slip The Chihuahuas Of War.....When an ORB dies.......a Chihuahua is born!

#26 Freda

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 01:46 PM

You leave your physical body behind and gravitate to the place you have earned for yourself,  according to the way you have lived your life here. In a sense all the good things you have done for others without thought of gain for self, determines where you go to, on the other side.

The actual passing is just like going to sleep in one room and waking in another .... it is that easy.  It is fear of the unknown that makes those who are unaware, appear to be in terror.

Often by the time someone who has been suffering and in pain for a long time, arrives at the stage of passing, they are ready to leave a wrecked body behind, and actually see those who have come to help them over to the other side.

Here is something that I have already posted on JREF, there was a chart with it explaining the different levels of waves, but as with there, I cannot transfer except through an email, and then it seems to paste properly.  Unless anybody has ideas on how to do it ?

On the Edge of the Etheric
or
Survival after Death Scientifically Explained
by
Arthur Findlay

' Part - Introduction':
I have thought much and pondered long over the strange experiences I have had during the last twelve years, experiences so strange, so foreign to all our accepted order of the phenomena of nature, that I can readily understand the difficulty many must have in accepting my records as true and accurate accounts of what really took place.
I can expect only those who have had similar experiences themselves, to accept what I am about to tell without question or doubt.
I know that if thirteen years ago I myself had been asked to believe these strange accounts I should have found it impossible to do so, but then my mental development was not sufficiently advanced to enable me to comprehend the subject. I then did not understand that these physical manifestations, which it has been my privilege to experience, are like the other manifestations of nature, ruled by law and governed by order, and it is only when our knowledge advances sufficiently that this new science is found to harmonise with all that is already known.

As I say, I have had strange and wonderful experiences, because I have been brought into contact with a new world, a world which even greater thinkers on the subject are only now beginning to comprehend. My position has been a peculiarly privileged one, as twelve years ago I had the good fortune to meet Mr John C. Sloan, one of the most gifted mediums in this country, and in his presence, when conditions were suitable, voices quite ex-traneous to the medium spoke to me, claiming to be those of friends who, in my ignorance, I had looked upon as dead. These voices are not produced by the medium, and they occur, not only when others are present, but also when he and I are alone together.

They are not produced by any means of trickery, and I have come, after years of thought, to believe that those we call dead live on as men and women in a duplicate etheric body, and are able to manifest their presence again in this material world of ours, by borrowing from the medium a certain excretion, which emanates from his body. This enables them, for the time being, to materialise their vocal organs and thus vibrate our atmosphere.

We must clearly understand that the etheric world is part of this world. That it is all about us. That it is material, though of a substance too fine for our senses normally to appreciate; that here and now we are etheric beings clothed in a physical body, and that death only means a separation of this etheric body from the physical covering. The etheric body is the real and enduring body, an exact duplicate of its physical counterpart. When this is appreciated it can more readily understood how, under certain conditions which we do not yet fully understand, it can again clothe itself in physical matter, and behave under the control of mind in a manner similar to ourselves.
So long as the thought prevails that the spirit of man is something of the nature of a puff of wind, or a fleecy cloud, of no form or substance, so long will incredulity last among those who believe that all that is can be seen and heard, and that nothing exists outside the range of the physical world.

To enable those who once lived in this physical world of ours to re-materialise their bodies, composed of this fine etheric substance, certain conditions are necessary. The first is the presence of someone possessing a superfluity of the substance of which recent years has been termed ectoplasm or teleplasm.
Whichever word will be ultimately adopted is a matter of no special importance. This individual is termed a medium, though it is believed that most of us have this quality of mediumship in a more or less degree, as we all have this substance within our own bodies.
The recognised medium is different from us solely because he or she has this substance to a greater degree than the average individual, and is thus more easily borrowed by the other world men and women who make use of him or her for the time being. In the case of the 'Direct Voice', to which I am now referring, the best results take place in darkness, as light vibrations make it more difficult for this ectoplasm to be built up with sufficient solidity to vibrate the atmosphere.
Therefore, though I have heard voices in daylight, yet they are stronger and better developed in the dark or in a red light which has not the same desructive effect as white light.
Quiet and harmonious conditions are also essential, and the condition of the atmosphere at times interferes with the results.
For example, when the air is heavily charged with electricity the results are poor, the best manifestations occurring on clear crisp moonlight nights when the atmosphere is not too loaded with moisture. At the best the conditions making speech possible are very delicate, and only by experience can the best results be obtained, but when these do prevail the manifestations are indeed very wonderful. Voices of all degrees of culture and intonation address the sitter, and their peculiar tones can again be recognised as those pertaining to the individual when living on earth.
The scepticism of the sitter may prevail for a time, but, if his honest desire for truth takes the first place, conviction is inevitable if the enquiry be pursued.

The object of this introduction is, in the first place, to clear away certain prejudices and misconceptions; in the second place to emphasise our colossal ignorance of the Universe; and in the third place to stress the great limitations of our sense organs.
We should approach this new revelation with mind sufficiently plastic to eable us to re-adjust our views, and put aside any preconceived ideas we may have of what is possible and what is impossible.......

I'm just going to read the book now. I bought it, loaned it out - must be six years ago and it has never been returned -  a friend has let me have her copy for a while.

Regards
Freda
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#27 reprise

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 06:34 PM

Here is something that I have already posted on JREF, there was a chart with it explaining the different levels of waves, but as with there, I cannot transfer except through an email, and then it seems to paste properly.  Unless anybody has ideas on how to do it ?


Did you get this chart off a website?  If so, you can tell us which website and one of us can attach the image for you.  Or you could email it to me and I can post it for you.

Just one gentle caution.  The "fair use" provisions of copyright law do not allow extensive quoting from copyrighted works without the copyright holder's permission.  Whenever you're quoting something from a website, the best way to avoid infringing copyright law is to quote a small portion of the work and provide a link to the webpage where it can be found.

#28 Freda

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 04:40 AM

Hi Reprise,

We seem to be following one another around at the moment, and thanks again for recommending this site - it seems that skeptics and believers are able to discuss here without the antagonism that crops up on JREF - where nobody is really learning anything of any value because of the animosity being stirred up at every possible chance.

I got the chart out of the book - just inside the first page after the Contents one.  It shows the different waves above and below the physical world which itself has - ( 400 to 750 billion waves a second).  It is really bugging me that I cannot post the information - but then I think is it worth the effort when it will probably only be scoffed at anyway.

Sounds as if the skeptics are making me skeptical  doesn't it ? (lol)  :)

My previous post here was from the book too - until you gave a link on JREF I wasn't aware it was on the web.
I don't think I would have any problems with getting permission from the copyright holder, Arthur Findlay left all copyright to the SNU, which our Church is affiliated to, putting us under the umbrella of their Charity status.
I am regularly in touch with the SNU in my capacity as Secretary of our Church - so I will make sure that in future I have their permission - but thanks for the reminder.

Regards
Freda
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#29 MoonChild

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 07:12 AM

our body is only a container for the soul to have this life! once the contaciner is not useful any more, it is discarded! well, how about keeping the container in good health FOR EVER! that means ETERNAL LIFE here on earth! any thoughts?
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#30 Freda

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 02:01 AM

Perish the thought as far as I am concerned MoonChild !!!!  :o

Who wants to live here eternally as things are today   ::)
Certainly not me ! I can't wait to leave this place behind.  I have another 15 years with any luck, maybe a smite longer - but if the other side began asking for volunteers for tomorrow,  I would be at the front of the queue like a shot disabled or not. ;D
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.




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