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Question to the skeptics and believers...


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#16 flyingorb

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 03:05 PM

[b]flyingorb I don't feel a skeptic holds the burden of proof.

The burden of proof lies with anyone who makes a claim, skeptics included.


Quite true Jim, it is logical and I stand corrected. ;)
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#17 maharet

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 07:54 AM

The burden of proof lies on the affirmative, always. Of course, proving a theory always requires have the insight to ponder that something exists (i.e. subatomic particles or the theory of relativity).

In layman's terms, if you believe a ghost exists you must prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they exist. That means gathering data and analyzing it and then someone must be able to duplicate your results.

#18 MoonChild

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 11:39 AM

In layman's terms, if you believe a ghost exists you must prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they exist. That means gathering data and analyzing it and then someone must be able to duplicate your results.


so does that also means that denying the existence of ghosts need the same logical analysis?
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#19 bizkithill

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 02:33 PM

nope because they havent been proven to exist...the burden of proof lies with the believers

#20 secretsign

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 04:05 PM

I really don't care for the word "burden".It just gives me negative feelings. "Proof" well that's not so bad,I can deal with that,and that is in the eye of the beholder.
I worked as a instore security person(catching shoplifters).I had to see the person remove the item and conseal it,while keeping 100% visual eye contact on them without being seen by them. In the end I had my proof,the merchadise, the person that took it had the burden, going to jail.I guess this is just my attempt to get a visual on the  skeptic view and the believer, for I was the believer untill I showed the skeptic, the police officer the proof(merchandise). Oh well I may be rambling a bit,I'v been gone to long,,lol.But I'm back..
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#21 Afoxmorel

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 06:30 PM

The problem with proof is that it takes all the wonderfully things out of life.  Why can't people believe what they want and not care if every one believes the same way?  If we spend all our lives proving everything we have a better chance of loosing your footing and not trusting our own instincts.

#22 MoonChild

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:58 PM

nope because they havent been proven to exist...the burden of proof lies with the believers

[smiley=cwm27.gif] [smiley=cwm27.gif] ROTF.

Proven to exist by whom? By someone who doesn;t even care if it exist?
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#23 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:05 AM

Well, Moon, it's their way of sitting back and watching everyone else scramble around with digital cameras and have a good laugh.

They don't need to believe in it for any reason.  It's not part of worldly science and the true working machine of it all.  It's not proven, so they have no reason to believe.  No reason to believe, no reason to prove. no reason to prove, no reason to research.  no reason to research, no reason to agree or assist those that are.  No reason to assist, no reason to understand why they research.  No reason to understand, no reason to take any of it seriously including the people that research it.  If you can't take the people and the subject seriously, none of the "evidence" ever brought to the table will be convincing enough to validate the need for understanding, research, proof, and Belief.
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#24 Gregory

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 02:47 PM

Well, Moon, it's their way of sitting back and watching everyone else scramble around with digital cameras and have a good laugh.

They don't need to believe in it for any reason.  It's not part of worldly science and the true working machine of it all.  It's not proven, so they have no reason to believe.  No reason to believe, no reason to prove. no reason to prove, no reason to research.  no reason to research, no reason to agree or assist those that are.  No reason to assist, no reason to understand why they research.  No reason to understand, no reason to take any of it seriously including the people that research it.  If you can't take the people and the subject seriously, none of the "evidence" ever brought to the table will be convincing enough to validate the need for understanding, research, proof, and Belief.


I don't think that's entirely fair.  Fair at all, actually.  I assure you, I do not sit back and laugh at anyone, except for the person who took a photograph oh his own thumb and mistook it for a ghost (hey, I'm only human).  And I don't think he posts here.  I take you seriously, and I think a lot of other skeptics do, too.
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#25 secretsign

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:03 PM

Gregory, do you care if ghosts exist?
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#26 Camille

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:21 PM

Simply because some skeptics may dismiss photographs, that does not mean they do not take the subject seriously.  There is more to paranormal research than photographs.  But, it seems photographs comprise of at least 75% of the "evidence" that's taken by ghosthunters.  I don't know why this is...maybe it's because taking a photograph is relatively easy, and also because we so desperately want to SEE a ghost.  And with so many amateur photographers out there (myself included), the margin for error is huge.  I'm hardly laughing when I see questionable photos. Pointing out the possibility of these errors is not meant to ridicule the person who took the picture.  Rather, it's to explore and discuss natural explanations for the orb, mist, or whatever.  I'm sure you would agree, Akthra, that exploring natural explanations is important to the discussion.  Just because the questions happen to come from a "skeptic" shouldn't make a difference.
"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite."Bertrand Russell"You're going to go to McDonald's... you'll order an Egg McMuffin and some coffee... WAIT! They're going to forget your extra salt! Remind them to give you salt, please!!"Ed Closser, Trivial Psychic

#27 Gregory

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:25 PM

Gregory, do you care if ghosts exist?


Well ... I would say that I do not have a personal interest in it, but find it intellectually interesting.  That's how I view most scientific questions.  I am always interested in new knowledge, an that is what the existance of ghosts, should it be proven, would be.
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#28 secretsign

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 03:31 PM

Gregory,I have to say I respect you for your answer. ;)
Slainte mhor agus a h-uile beannachd duibh Good health and every blessing to you

#29 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 06:00 PM

Absolutely.  My point of view was just that, it was a point of view that has taken on form through how I observe some skeptics.  And.... well there's that word again, skeptic.  It's a bad word becuase it means so many things to different people.  In my own mind, I'm a skpetic.  in other peoples mind, I'm not even close to a skeptic. *shrugs*  I see what you see Camille, I see a lot of the evidence being presented in the form of photos.  it's probably one of the least creditable these days due to computers.  I completely understand your view point and i think it's a very true one.  I do apoligize Gregory if it seems unfair.  I feel many (not all, and not you necessarily) skeptics in the truest sense think that way.  it seems to be the logical psychological path for a true skeptic.  

They look at what we as a community as a whole brings forward as proof.  That proof, has little going for it at this time.

I know myself as an individual, am trying to change that point of view.  

And quite honestly, I really do thank you guys for respecting many of the people on this board that do take the time to go out and find answers. For those people that go head to head with a subject that is sooo.... way out there in many perceptions.  I think that's what makes this board in general so great.

I do want to state that my negative feelings don't come from say, 95% or more of the skeptical posters here. As a whole, I'm glad you guys keep coming back to see what gets posted.  I really hope soon, I'll be able to give you guys a completely fresh point of view from both sides of the fence.
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#30 Camille

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 08:02 PM

Fair enough.  The respect is mutual.

It seems that it is just as easy for some die-hard believers to dismiss all skeptics as "closed-minded grumps" as it is for some skeptics to write off believers here as woo-woos.  This is especially the case when photos, evps, encounters, etc. are questioned by a skeptic, as opposed to a "believer."  Just my observation from my own personal experience.  

I realize that you're not referring to all skeptics, perhaps just those who have not even bothered to consider evidence.  But, for some people, you don't need to eat a whole bowl of porridge to determine if it's hot.  When the same type of evidence (orb photos/video, barely audible evps or evps that could just as easily be the voice of someone from the group as the "ghost", etc.) is presented over and over again, we begin to start looking like the boy who cried wolf.  Understandably, then, many people stop taking the evidence seriously.  When they stop taking evidence seriously, then they also begin to doubt the claims.  

I firmly believe that if we are going to study this subject seriously, we need to take a long hard, critical look at our methods. If ghost hunters/researchers are not objective and refuse to raise standards with our own work, then we will only continue to flood and dilute this area with questionable evidence.  This, in turn, further discredits ourselves and other researchers in the field.  

Pointing fingers at skeptics and blaming them for refusing to see the "truth" is counterproductive and does nothing to further our goals.  

Well, Akthra, I look forward to the results from your future research.  You seem level-headed...and exhibit the same enthusiasm I had when I first started researching ghosts.   I trust that you'll be in this for the long haul. :-X
"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite."Bertrand Russell"You're going to go to McDonald's... you'll order an Egg McMuffin and some coffee... WAIT! They're going to forget your extra salt! Remind them to give you salt, please!!"Ed Closser, Trivial Psychic




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