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#31 maharet

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 07:24 PM

I think it may only come from the television set, and those being the old television sets. I don't pay attention to it anymore or I would've gone nuts a long time ago.

And on schizophrenics:
If you talk to God, you're praying.
If God talks back, you're schizophrenic. ;)

#32 Freda

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 04:02 AM

Hi,

I was actually referred to Ghostville by someone on the JREF, as somewhere where I can find others of like mind to discuss things with.  As a believer not a skeptic, I find some of the posters there very  rude, demanding answers to questions, that you have continually stated you are not at liberty to respond to, and calling me a liar, deluded, kook, selfish and a lot more names besides.

I have never come across this kind of attitude in 27 years. I found that I wanted to protect the experiences I'd had over the years and of course this resulted in more verbal diatribe.  I blocked a couple of the posters because of the swearing and complete ignorance both in manner and misunderstanding of what they were discussing.  I have agreed to disagree stating that I wasn't out to change anyones views that were different to mine - but that wasn't good enough - they wanted proof, proof, proof and more proof.  How can you possibly provide proof on that which only you have experienced ? Only you have heard ? Spontaneous happenings that can in no way be repeated ?

All you get thrown at you is take the test - the Randi test for $1,000,000 - that I am not remotely interested in. ( It would be very ironic if he were to pass over and those same skeptics refuse to acknowledge who was attepting to communicate - for according to the forum, the challenge will continue after his passing - if he ever pays it out. ) I am very sceptical about that issue.  After all trust works two ways, we have only his word for it that such a challenge is there for the taking, and he made his fortune out of 'magic and illusion.' I rest my case.

We are all very different individuals who have each got something to offer the other on the wider scale of things .... resorting to sarcasm is very disheartening to anyone who is just wanting to expand knowledge in some way and maybe is trying to find further indications of the truth of our being here at all.

My incursion into the skeptic forum provided me with nothing but heartaches when my emotions were turned completely upside down - I found myself giving as good as I got with some of the posts, and this caused me the heartache for I have always tried to remain calm in the face of adversity - I let myself down big time when I joined their level.  Some of the people seem to be quite nice but they are let down by those who appear to come across as thugs and bullies.
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#33 MoonChild

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 04:16 AM

We are all very different individuals who have each got something to offer the other on the wider scale of things ....
FREDA


First of all, let me welcome you to our Village :) I am sure you will enjoy the stay.

I am not a skeptic but considers myself to be a believer. but I am not a person who TENDS to believe in anything and everything. I am learnable and shares my ideas with like minded people. What you have mentioned is absolutely right, we all have something to share on the wider scale..... and that is the reason I am still "HAUNTING" the Village ;) If people were closed minded or too much attacking kind, I would have left for better looong back.

Just want to assure you things are fantastic in here, good people, good thoughts! see ya around:)
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#34 maharet

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 09:02 AM

The whole point of the dialogue here on the boards is to share ideas and open our minds.

Freda, I don't understand why you're on the skeptic boards if you're a believer and don't like having your beliefs challenged. We all have our beliefs challenged on here, most of us skeptics (though it seems some of us are more skeptical than others) are put through the wringer but in the politest way possible.

I really don't see anyone calling anyone else's beliefs stupid. Of course, if you're referring to my saying that anyone who blindly believes anything they're told as weak-minded, I stand by that statement.

I personally enjoy all the different viewpoints.

#35 JimTheBrit

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 11:24 AM

Welcome to Ghostvillage, Freda.

Freda I have agreed to disagree stating that I wasn't out to change anyones views that were different to mine - but that wasn't good enough - they wanted proof, proof, proof and more proof.  How can you possibly provide proof on that which only you have experienced ? Only you have heard ? Spontaneous happenings that can in no way be repeated ?

Agreeing to disagree is no defence, Freda. If you imply or explicitly state a belief about something, anything, you may be challenged about it. Less so when the belief is about something most people think self-evident, more so when that belief is more controversial. You can guarantee a flurry of probing questioning when posting pro-paranormal views on a skeptics’ board.

You ask how you can provide proof on that which only you have experienced. My response to you would be – is personal experience a reasonable basis for believing that what you experienced was real (i.e. part of the 'mechanisms' of the universe)? My views on this have already been posted in several threads.

After all trust works two ways, we have only his word for it that such a challenge is there for the taking, and he made his fortune out of 'magic and illusion.' I rest my case.

Trust is not the same as evidence and ‘magic and illusion’ is not the same as fraud. Note that Randi being revealed as a crook tomorrow would not lend anymore credibility to the claims that we live on after death, people can heal through touch, remote viewing is real, etc.

Jim.

#36 flyingorb

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 03:01 PM

Hi Freda!

Welcome to the village!  There are skeptics here, believers here, skeptical believers here, but throughout the different opinions and personalities there are no disagreeable little trolls here, except for the occasional drive by.  I am sure you will find a pleasent change of pace, and attitudes.

On my visit to JREF I found some facinating, intelligent people.  I enjoyed reading their thoughts even though most disagreed with me.  Then the ankle bitting, vile, little trolls moved in and that spoiled the interchange for me too.

Welcome............. :)
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#37 flyingorb

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 03:10 PM

hi maharet,
hi jim,

I think a healthy dose of skepticism is necessary for a believer also.

Too many things on the web today are labled as "paranormal" especially when the pic is tagged as a photoshop construct.  we even had a bit of that in ghostvillage.  It was proved to be fraudulent and I think a few of the villagers learned a valuable lesson about accepting evidence without questioning it deeper. ;D
CRY HAVOK! Let Slip The Chihuahuas Of War.....When an ORB dies.......a Chihuahua is born!

#38 Freda

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 03:18 PM

Hi Maharet,

I wasn't actually referring to anyone of these forums flower, and I have no objections to anyone questioning my beliefs or even discussing them in a rational manner.

I object strongly to being called a liar though I understand that perhaps because of past challenges being unsavoury,  some may adopt the attitude of being judge and jury, tarring others with the same brush, but there is no need to resort to swearing or posting in an offensive manner, suggesting that I am going totally round the bend.

I like to visit anything if I am going to learn from what is being discussed.  I would never dream of calling anybody elses beliefs stupid, even if I thought it odd - I would listen politely and reply in the same vein.

We are all here for a reason and getting along with each other despite differing views is a real testing point, but not one that cannot be overcome with tact and thought towards the other person.

I am skeptical about a lot of things - but I still have a lot to learn.
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#39 Freda

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 03:37 PM

hi Jim & Flyingorb,

Thanks for the welcome.

  Then the ankle bitting, vile, little trolls moved in and that spoiled the interchange for me too  

I totally agree.  Some of those posting sounded very nice, even for skeptics - and I too enjoyed the interchange. Don't know why I joined really, I was looking for something else and suddenly it was on the monitor - so I looked further. Can't say I regret doing so really, and some of the other threads are great for information etc.

Yes Jim, my experiences were very real to me - and I suppose being shown what it was like to die could have been classed as "mechanisms of the universe" as we are all part and parcel of that aren't we ?
Refuse to set boundaries to what is achievable and you will make the impossible happen. Brahma Kumaris.

#40 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 05:17 PM

I recently read several threads on the JREF message boards .  ::)

The trolls to which you refer border on cynic not skeptic. While some of the people offered good suggestions that would help explain certain happenings , I also noticed that the Million dollar challenge was constantly being thrown up. These people live to argue a point.  :PThe outcome is secondary to the argument. They refuse to even allow themselves a moment of doubt about their stringent beliefs and offer nothing in the way of compromise or middle ground . They live to pick apart the beliefs of others and ask for conclusive proof at every turn. If I had conclusive proof , I wouldnt waste my time discussing it with them . They would only find more excuses to continue the argument and would refuse to accept what is right in front of their face.
They ask for conclusive proof on a subject where it is much easier to take the scientific side. Its really the only side to take since proof of an afterlife has never been proven scientificly

Who needs their lousy million ? The peramiters of the presentation of proof are designed to make it impossiable to obtain.

They want scientific proof of the existence of life after death and blablabla so on. If I personally had scientific proof I wouldnt waste my time with the likes of JREF. James Randi and his patheitc million dollars would be the least of my worries. Main stream science would offer much more than a million in grants in order to study the phenomenon if it could be proven consistantly.

Ghosts and spirit research is subjective since their is no conclusive proof. I wouldn't have wasted 11 years of my life in its study if I didnt think there was something to it . I am definitly in good company. Edision, Einstien, and more paranormal psycologist than you can shake a stick at have and continue to search for life after death.

Finally , even if I live my whole life and never find scientific proof of a conclusive nature , I will be happy I took the journey all the same . Of course the destination is what we all anticipate , but the journey is half the fun of getting there. Studying paranormal phenomenon has made me a better person in many ways. I assure you that as an investigator, my skills are getting sharper with every task I undertake. ( no pun intended ) lol


Rockhauler2k1 ;D
Many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view.Posted Image

#41 chesta

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 06:52 PM

I just looked through Randi's forum but there appears to be some intelligent people there but way too many cynics from what I've seen so I don’t see the point in joining.  A sensible discussion giving an opposing view doesn't seem too likely there.  I don't think I'm going to consider taking his challenge anymore it seems more like a publicity stunt then a real honest challenge.  

There is tons of proof for life after death and when positive results are shown all cynics do is attack the credibility of the experiment and the controls without any research or experimentation themselves.  It doesn't matter how many times paranormal phenomena is demonstrated under controlled conditions cynics will always find a reason to discredit it.  Using their ways you can dismiss anything.  

Say if I didn't believe in the ocean it would be very easy to dismiss using skeptical tactics.  
-First I would say something like it’s irrational to believe that a large body of water like the ocean exists there are only rivers.  Anyone who believes in it is delusional.  The idea of the ocean is a result of wishful thinking it’s so easy to believe that these magical large bodies of water exist.  
-Then I’ll say there is no evidence to support the idea of an ocean so it’s gullible to believe in.    
-I don't have to go and try to see the ocean myself because "the burden of proof isn’t on me" so I can just sit back and criticize without really doing any real investigation.
-I won't accept any pictures or video because they could easily be faked.      
-Any first hand accounts of the ocean mean nothing because it's anecdotal.  
-If there would happen to be an experiment proving it first I'll claim that they are biased because it's in the scientists interests to prove the oceans existence.  
-Next I'll attack credibility and controls of any experiments involving the ocean to make it seem invalid no matter how good the results.  I will always find a way to do this.  
-I would also just keep demanding that it gets replicated over and over again no matter how many times it's done I would never be satisfied.  
-I will ignore the strongest evidence and arguments for it and any positive results would just be explained as chance or coincidence.  I would force any explanation that make the results fit into my already set beliefs.  
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. – Carl Jung

#42 Camille

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 08:12 PM

Say if I didn't believe in the ocean it would be very easy to dismiss using skeptical tactics.  


A ghost is not the same thing as an ocean.    :-/
"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite."Bertrand Russell"You're going to go to McDonald's... you'll order an Egg McMuffin and some coffee... WAIT! They're going to forget your extra salt! Remind them to give you salt, please!!"Ed Closser, Trivial Psychic

#43 chesta

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 08:26 PM

A ghost is not the same thing as an ocean.    :-/


I obviously get that I'm only pointing out how the typical cynical ways used against the paranormal could be used to discredit anything.  If those types of closed-minded tactics were valid you could dismiss any scientific experiment using them if you apply the same standard that skeptics use to debunk the paranormal.  
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. – Carl Jung

#44 Camille

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 11:05 PM

But, that's not a realistic comparison.    ::)  

Nor are all (or even most) skeptics cynics  ;)

Oceans are not likely to go anywhere anytime soon, and can be readily observed. Unfortunately, a ghostie is not nearly as cooperative.  


P.S.

Been meaning to ask you before...do you believe there is a place for science in paranormal research?
"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite."Bertrand Russell"You're going to go to McDonald's... you'll order an Egg McMuffin and some coffee... WAIT! They're going to forget your extra salt! Remind them to give you salt, please!!"Ed Closser, Trivial Psychic

#45 chesta

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 02:58 AM

But, that's not a realistic comparison.    ::)  

Nor are all (or even most) skeptics cynics  ;)

Oceans are not likely to go anywhere anytime soon, and can be readily observed. Unfortunately, a ghostie is not nearly as cooperative.  


P.S.

Been meaning to ask you before...do you believe there is a place for science in paranormal research?


I know not all skeptics are cynics a lot that I've talked to some who have been open-minded and some who aren't.  I wasn't trying to compare ghosts and oceans at all they are nothing a like it wasn't meant to be taken literally.  I'm just trying to point out how the criteria some skeptics apply against paranormal is unreasonable and when used in those ways could discredit anything if applied to something different like it's used to discredit ghosts.  So there isn't any more confusion just replace the word ocean there with ghost and that's the usual way I've seen most skeptics use when it comes to anything paranormal.  

About there being a place in science for paranormal research I think there is but it's extremely limited.  Skepticism is needed people shouldn’t be gullible but the ways some use it to debunk already existing evidence is troubling and only used to disprove not find the truth.  First it would probably take a while to get acceptance from scientists.  Hopefully more of them will open their minds more this is something that should be continually tested to provide even more evidence but some will always find a reason to dismiss it.  The major problem is there is only so much that can be done with paranormal because most of it is beyond the physical so it makes it difficult to replicate.  I’m personally going continue to have paranormal experiences myself instead of waiting for science to do more but I would like to see that area experimented with as much as possible.  
 
 
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. – Carl Jung




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