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Where is the logic?


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#1 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 06:38 PM

It amazes me how so little logic is applied in trying to find facts in regards to paranormal happenings. So much is taken for granted by so-called ghosthunters and groups claiming that dustballs and cigar smoke are proof of an afterlife. †They aren't even willing to question the obvious answers to their own questions. Where is the credibility in that ? †:-/ How can anyone like that expect to be taken seriuosly?

Logic coupled with experience and a bit of faith is all we have . Lets not be mistaken, there has yet to be a way to prove life after death scientificly. Paranormal phenomenon is pseudoscience at best and relys on a leap of faith or first hand experience.

There are those who stringently believe that paranormal phenomenon doesnt exist at all. Logic states that it doesn't exist until proven conclusivly that it does. Paranormal phenomenon bases itself in belief not fact. The choice to believe or not falls to each of us .

Perception is indeed a huge part of the formula but without logic the soup we serve is nothing more than hot water .

This post may seem a bit abrasive but it is indeed something to consider. †::)


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#2 maharet

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 09:52 PM

My life philosophy: Nothing is impossible; there are only some things that are very highly improbably. I don't classify the paranormal as being highly improbable, so I agree with you that some people classify anyting not easily categorized as paranormal.

However, calling it a pseudoscience is a little too easy. Someday, there will be a way to study paranormal phenomena. History gives me that solid basis. It's intellectualy lazy to simply rely on belief in the unknown and not try to study it in a logical manner. Someday, an enterprising individual will figure it out.

#3 flyingorb

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 02:25 PM

Pseudoscience?  Can't quite choke that one down.  A great many researchers take exploring the paranormal quite seriously.  Modern CCD cameras give us a glimpse into what is possible using equipement developed specifically to work in frequencies outside our physical visual limits.  Who knows what will be discovered if long wave infrared (heat) sensing cameras become readily available without sacrificing an arm and a leg?

Now if you are talking about kids looking for kicks that happen to bring a camera along, I might believe you.  I did have one ghostvillager visit my site and suggest taking a photo of ciggy smoke and claim paranormal origions.  I did find that a bit depressing.

However, when I capture in infrared the head of an apparition smoking a cigar (on my site), then realise that the photograph explains why I smelled cigar smoke in that area, now thats what I live for.... :)
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#4 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 03:17 PM

maharet

However, calling it a pseudoscience is a little too easy. Someday, there will be a way to study paranormal phenomena.

Actually simple formula can be very profound. While I respect your right to form an opinion, it is indeed pseudoscience for many reasons. Paranormal phenomenon has never been proven conclusivly to begin with, secondly there is no way to study it for lack of a control or control group. It relies on speculation and first hand experience only and is in no way based in fact other than by perception and such experiences. Think about it for a minute , if you will. History and hauntings are passed down by word of mouth . Alot can be lost in the translation. Additionally what is being passed down is not proven conclusivly , if were , it would be a standard teaching in 7th grade science.

Paranormal events , based on my personal experience , do indeed exist but by my estimation too little logic is applied in order to rule out explainable phenomenon.

Lets not confuse belief with proven fact . :)

Flying ,

Pseudoscience?  Can't quite choke that one down.  A great many researchers take exploring the paranormal quite seriously.

 


I never claimed they didn't.  :-/  I am one who certainly falls into that catagory.


Modern CCD cameras give us a glimpse into what is possible using equipement developed specifically to work in frequencies outside our physical visual limits.

CCDs have their faults. They heat up in warm weather( when used frequently) and can cause little red dots in digital photos and video that can be mistaken for paranormal activity. . The are only as good as their users knowlege and skill , just like any equipment that we put in our hand. Logical use and practice help to eliminate faults in equipment use. Reproducing effects is also helpful in understanding what is not paranormal on film .


However, when I capture in infrared the head of an apparition smoking a cigar (on my site), then realise that the photograph explains why I smelled cigar smoke in that area, now thats what I live for....  



I havent seen your cigar photo yet . I cant wait to take a look  ;)

The premise of this post was to demonstrate that logic plays a pivotal part in understanding our surroundings and our equipment while examining the paranormal . I find it quite distressing at times to see the ease with which ordinary occurances are so readily accepted as paranormal.

I am still learning something new every time I go on an outting , either about my equipment or about my surroundings and a multitude of other things . Iam simply saying that logic plays a large part in dispelling myth and is instrumental in bringing about the truth.

I enjoyed your responses, thanks  ;)

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#5 chesta

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 06:28 PM

Some areas of the paranormal could be considered pseudoscience but there are a lot of different ways that the paranormal can be demonstrated under controlled conditions.  There are a lot of parts in parapsychology which are replicable and have already been done several times successfully in scientific experiments.  The problem is when that is done and turns up positive results which are certainly paranormal disbelievers can only resort to attacking the credibility of the experiment when the results don't fit their beliefs but they seem to do that every time no matter what.  When it comes to ghosts hunts the problem is it's not very controlled but it does turn out great first hand experiences which are the best way of knowing.  
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. Ė Carl Jung

#6 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 08:36 PM

chesta,

Some areas of the paranormal could be considered pseudoscience but there are a lot of different ways that the paranormal can be demonstrated under controlled conditions.

An example would be ? † †:-/

Astral projection?

Mind reading?

Telekinesis?

Where exactly can I find information on conclusive scientific evidence of such phenomenon? †I'd love to check it out †;D


The problem is when that is done and turns up positive results which are certainly paranormal disbelievers can only resort to attacking the credibility of the experiment when the results don't fit their beliefs but they seem to do that every time no matter what.



Which are certainly paranormal ? Isn't that a belief ridden statement in itself?

Disbelievers, skeptics and cynics differ and all exist . Do you mean a cynic? †???

Your statement inplies that skeptics are belief based creatures. This doesnt appear to be the case based on my personal experience.

Calling a skeptic a believer is a condradiction in terms.

Most of the skeptics I have had contact with all have one thing in common . They crave consistancy in method and shun non-traditional science. Their claim is " prove it is so " while the believers credo is " It hasn't been disproven "




I enjoyed your post and Your input is appreciated , †;D

Rockhauler2k1

P.S. †We're all still learning , and this post is a way for me to understand the views of others and their logic.
We all have different points of view and one of the best ways to learn is to ask questions and find out what others think .

Your responses help me to understand your views. We all have something to offer even if we dont always know were giving it .

Im glad we have GV and such a great group of folks willing to discuss topics and learn together .
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#7 chesta

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 10:34 PM

chesta,

An example would be ?    :-/

Astral projection?

Mind reading?

Telekinesis?

Where exactly can I find information on conclusive scientific evidence of such phenomenon?  I'd love to check it out  ;D

Some examples I can think of right now would be remote viewing, OBES & NDEs, mediumship, xenoglossy, past life regression, ectoplasm experiments, telekinesis & psychokinesis, psi, experiments like the scole experiments, and pretty much anything involved in parapsychology.  

Here are a few links dealing with this sort of thing that I can remember now:
http://www.survivalscience.org/
http://www.victorzam...book/index.html
http://www.survivala...experiments.htm
http://www.openminds...com/hbo-exp.htm
http://www.astralpul.....iscat=E-Books
http://www.psisci.fo...mes/mainfrm.htm


Which are certainly paranormal ? Isn't that a belief ridden statement in itself?


Well it would be considered paranormal if something is demonstrated under controlled conditions in that area.  A example would be if a remote viewer identifies something they couldnít have possibly perceived in the physical then that is showing some sort of esp which is paranormal.  

Disbelievers, skeptics and cynics differ and all exist . Do you mean a cynic?  ???

Iím referring to the cynics I have no problem with skeptics as long as they arenít closed-minded.  

Your statement inplies that skeptics are belief based creatures. This doesnt appear to be the case based on my personal experience.  

Calling a skeptic a believer is a condradiction in terms.  

Most of the skeptics I have had contact with all have one thing in common . They crave consistancy in method and shun non-traditional science. Their claim is " prove it is so " while the believers credo is " It hasn't been disproven "


Not all of them are belief based.  The cynical types seem base their negativity towards paranormal on the belief that itís all BS.  The problem with cynics is they arenít true skeptics and use skepticism as a cover only to justify their already set world views which is not scientific itís dogmatic.    
http://clik.to/astralprojectionI refuse to commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud. Ė Carl Jung

#8 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 06:50 AM

Indeed  :)

I love ISS . Its one of my favorite places to go and read. There are tons of studies to check out and good information. It is a reminder that there is a history of study and gives us a basis by which to form new theories and hypothesis.


A example would be if a remote viewer identifies something they couldnít have possibly perceived in the physical then that is showing some sort of esp which is paranormal.    

It becomes proven , when the skill is demonstrated consistantly over time under a controled environment and conditions. The term paranormal can be applied to multiple types of events but is only a way to describe and unknown phenomenon and is in no way conclusive.

paranormal: not scientifically explainable  ( says it all )

The above definition comes from Websters and is the generally accepted definition, even by the paranormal community.

Not all of them are belief based.  The cynical types seem base their negativity towards paranormal on the belief that itís all BS.  The problem with cynics is they arenít true skeptics and use skepticism as a cover only to justify their already set world views which is not scientific itís dogmatic.    


Mixing terms again  :-/  I agree that cynics are not skeptics. Two different animals entirely  ;)   Cynics live for the sake of the argument while skeptics defer to logic and are willing to accept logic as a reasonable answer to most questions but I can assure you that a large majority are not belief based creatures.

I will be checking out the sites you listed that I havent seen as of yet. Thank you for posting them .


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#9 maharet

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 09:13 PM

As far as I know, there are a few accredited universities in the United States that have paranormal psychology departments. I know a lot of those studies revolve around telepathy, telekinesis and other powers of the mind. However, I believe those are accredited degrees and I don't think they, or the Midwest Board, would take kindly to learning that they have an accredited pseudoscience.

Powers of the mind can be studied in controlled environments with a control group. It's just not the most popular field since they don't get the grants the other sciences do and you can't exactly go work for a think tank in parapsychology.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to classify it as a social science for the time being.

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 09:33 PM

Psychology is considered by many to be pseudoscientific, because its methods cannot even theoretically be disproven. Despite this, there are a few accredited psychologists out there.

#11 flyingorb

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 01:43 PM

Interesting point Herbie.  Hope you decide to register and stick around awhile. :)
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#12 reprise

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 06:43 PM

How many of the those posters here who believe in paranormal phenomena do not believe in some kind of "after-life"?  From a skeptic's point of view, it would be entirely possible for one to exist without the other necessarily existing too, but the two beliefs seem to be very closely aligned.

I think one thing which often damages the credibility of believers is their failure to address the issue of inconsistencies between the paradigms of different sets of believers.  With so many people reporting direct or indirect contact with the spirit realm, there should be a certain consistency in the information purportedly gathered from the other realm and yet that consistency seems to be lacking.  What explanation do believers think lies behind the inconsistencies?  

#13 Rockhauler2k1

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 07:06 PM

Reprise,

How many of the those posters here who believe in paranormal phenomena do not believe in some kind of "after-life"?


I posed the exact opposite question in the JREF forum . Very ironic indeed .. lol  

I asked if it were possible for skeptic Christians not to believe in the spirit realm in light of the Bibles teachings . I find it interesting that some skeptics , even ones who believe in a traditional God (as seen on TV and in the Bible ) just kidding  ;D can not grasp the concept of an afterlife . Jesus , according to the story rose from the dead and removed his own stone from his tomb and appeared to several folks . Some say as a spirit while others contend that he was in human form.

I have witnessed an apparition once in 11 years and have been studying hauntings and paranormal phenomenon related to ghosts and spirits for at least that long. I must say that I went through the standard operating procedure in its investigation and verification but have been unable to reproduce the effect nor explain it based on logic or science.

I call myself a learner as are we all. I study that which is impossible to prove by sceince and logic. I know it exists through personal experience only and have no definitive proof either way logically or scientificly.

I have found , with very little doubt that 98% of what is reported as a haunting is perfectly explainable phenomenon. I live for the 2%.

I am neither a believer nor am I a skeptic if thats possible. lol   :)


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#14 reprise

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 07:48 PM

I think that there is often a misconception, Rock, that when skeptics challenge the objective reality of a "paranormal experience" (I am beginning to loathe the term "paranormal"), they are also challenging the subjective experience of the person reporting the event - most often, what skeptics are challenging is the interpretation given to that event by the person who experienced it.

While not all paranormal experiences have an emotional component, many do - either representing (to the person reporting the occurence) contact of some kind with a deceased love one or offering more general "proof" for the persistence of life after bodily death.

I am quite often amazed at just how many people find the idea that there might be nothing at all beyond this earthly existence absolutely horrifying - even if they have no faith at all that there is a supreme being and some kind of post-mortem paradise awaiting them, many people find the idea of themselves and their loved ones simply ceasing to exist anymore extremely disturbing.  And I do think that the Fox Mulder phenomenon explains the vast majority of reports of "paranormal events".

#15 Bangin

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 06:27 AM

It's time for my ramblings..lol  I'll start by saying that I do not believe in a supreme being.  I wandered off from that beaten path when I was a single digit child.  I must say that I was 'led' by adults while on that path.  I broke myself from that path with no outside influence..it came from within.  For 15+ years (I'm 22 now) I had believed that death brought nothing, except an end.  Those thoughts never "horrified" me and my beliefs were very FIRM.  

After becoming involved with the paranormal, I've gathered enough evidence to satisfy my belief in the field.  I believe that something is here amongst us.  Whether this 'afterlife' treats some of us or everyone, I haven't the slightest.  I'm convinced that some remain here.  Of course, I do not accept EVERY bit of 'evidence' that people present as proof of an afterlife.  As of now, I do not believe in a supreme being and I believe in an afterlife (not sure if it applies to everyone).  

Too many unanswered questions, that's a definite.
First voice: "Where is he...around here?"Second voice: "He's dead."First voice: "Ah, he could be anywhere then."




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