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i would like to believe, but......


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#16 MoonChild

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 04:37 AM

PsychoBlonde, that is an interesting question! I am seeing your question has two parts to it. What has to be believed and why it should be believed. Well, the second part of the question is what I am answering first. WHY HAS it to be believed? That answer has to come from each person asking that question. There is definitely a reason why each person want to know or believe. Without a reason, no one does anything. the reason is the key for anything to happen in this realm. The purpose, the key. I would like to put it this way. If a person is hungry desperately, he may eat whatever comes to his hands. But now, while we have lunch, say we have a buffett, do we all eat everything? I guess not. We may or maynot "taste" a few dishes, but we may opt to eat a few. Why? Does that clears the why part of the question?

Now comes "what" part! That is pretty difficult to answer. Knowledge and Quest is the answer to this. Get the right information, get it form the right source. If you are seeking to learn about Computers, do you go to someone who can't even tryp on the keyboard? Or would you prefer to learn from Bill Gates or Scott McNealy? Well, I dunno, but I prefer to learn from the experts, the people who have DONE it rather than "those" experts who "know it all" "done it all" but don't even knwo the spelling of the word I am seeking for! And also I belive that in the quest for the supernaturals, we should develop sensitivity. I am personally not a sensitive person. I need to improve my faculty in this. While we are outdoor gazing at the clear sky, don't we all "see" shapes in the clouds? Why? Does that mean the shapes are real? Or does that mean "our" imagination is real? Or is there anything more to it? This is a vast subject - the what part. I may be able to go on talking in here, but I would take this chance to invite the opinions of fellow villagers so that rather than arriving at a dead end, I could move on the right way.

The final word is that it is easier to deny things you may not know rther than to spend effort to understand the REALITY!  :)
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#17 Ghost_Inspector

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 04:51 AM

I think Jeff wrote a recent article that pertains to this question. It's on faith and the idea behind "believing without seeing" supernatural stuff.

http://www.ghostvill..._04192003.shtml

#18 ohhorror

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 09:03 AM

[glow=red,2,300]Psychoblonde[/glow]

There needs to be a certain amount of belief or shall I say an open mind when investigating the paranormal. You can have the most documented haunted house ever send in a skeptic with a camera and send in someone who believes (has an open mind), and you get 2 different results. When dealing with the paranormal it is not cut and dried, there is no scientific method. I have seen statements made by other investigators that seem like they are trying to disprove ghosts rather than trying to prove their existence. Once you rule out any photographic anomalies dust, light, camera malfunction, and you still have something in the photo, in my book (and this is my own opinion) you may actually have something.  
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#19 psychoblonde

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 10:48 AM

Wow you guys, THANKS!

It's nice to get my question actually answered instead of one of those so called professionals talking in circles because he doesn't understand and won't admit it.

Moon, I find your answers very interesting!  So we all have a reason for doing this, but everyone's reason is different (my post on the General Board is also showing me that).  Now my goal is just to find others that have the same reason that I do, and that is to understand.  I love to work on puzzles and finding answers and figuring things out.  This also sounds like it is a combination of Psychology, Philosophy, and Science.  The more I learn, the more I am determined to do this, now I just have to find out HOW to learn in this field.

ohhorror, interesting thought.  Wonder why some people who are interested in the field would try to disprove it........are you referring to someone who overanalyzes something?

I wonder, what would constitute good solid proof?  Is it possible that we will never have good solid proof of the existence of spirits?  In fact, if you think about it, there are plenty of theories in life that don't have good solid proof to back them up, it's just that we now "accept" them in our lives.  How many of us would have believed Albert Einsteins theories back in his time?  Yet now, because we are taught his theories in school, we accept them.  

Imagine that, the theory of how and why orbs are formed could be taught in school some day, probably many moons from now, but maybe it's possible.

#20 ohhorror

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:17 AM

[glow=red,2,300]Psychoblonde[/glow]

This is my favorite quote:

For those who believe, no explanation is necessary.
For those who do not, none will suffice.
--- Joseph Dunninger

There are actually several people who I my opinion are looking too hard to actually find proof that in the process they are disproving anything that might be valid. They will start to automatically dismiss orbs as being nothing more than dust, a streak of light as lens flare or sunlight hitting dust. Everything needs to be checked out to make sure what you have in a photo is valid, without going too far; you need to keep an open mind. It is the opposite end of the spectrum of the person who takes a picture that has multiple orbs in it and says, "look at all the ghosts", meanwhile it may be raining or humid, or really dusty that is really causing the orb effect.

Me, I am a believer no doubt, I grew up in a haunted house which is still very active I have witnessed first hand streaks of light, shadows moving across the room, cold spots, footsteps, banging on walls and doors... but you have to walk a fine line between belief and disbelief, investigating requires the use of history, science, the right equipment and knowing how to use it, an open mind yet being able to judge what might false and what might be positive.

As far as a good course, Flamel College has a great study at home one.
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#21 flyingorb

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 02:55 PM

Hi Psychoblond,

I am a seeker, there IS one thing that must be believed as it is true.  Seek and You Will Find.  

What you find may not be what you intended at the start of the journey, but if you free yourself of preconcieved beliefs and set no limits on how commited you are, you will be granted insite.

QUOTE-I wonder, what would constitute good solid proof?-QUOTE

Truth is in the eye of the beholder.  What constitutes proof to one may be insufficient to others.  Work to satify yourself thats the only one you must convince. ;)
CRY HAVOK! Let Slip The Chihuahuas Of War.....When an ORB dies.......a Chihuahua is born!

#22 MoonChild

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 10:14 PM

OhHorror --> There are actually several people who I my opinion are looking too hard to actually find proof that in the process they are disproving anything that might be valid. <--

Wow pal, that is fantastic! RIGHT SAID, couldn't put it better! And that is the same thing I refer as sensitivity. I guess first hand I need to improve upon this myself!

And as FlyingOrb said, Truth is in the eyes of the beholder, but the problem today is that even if a truck hits you face on,you may still not believe it true!

And by the way, The AQUARIAN AGE has dawned and perhaps have opened up a new vista for true knowledge!

SEEK and you shall receive! Nothing happens by chance!
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#23 ohhorror

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Posted 29 April 2003 - 06:16 AM

Thanks Moonchild!
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#24 psychoblonde

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Posted 29 April 2003 - 08:27 AM

Thanks all!

I understand that in the end, it is what I believe that constitutes proof for me.  But this is where I am struggling, I am so new to this, that I don't feel I am educated enough to even understand what I believe.

I am afraid that I'll believe in an Orb that is only a dust particle and then be slammed for believing that (I've seen it done, even on this site).

The further I dive into this, the more confused I become.

Also, why would someone try TOO hard to prove something?  I am not understanding what you guys mean by that?

And Moon, what are you referring to by the Aquarian age?  Are we getting into Astrology now?

Thanks guys, I am really learning a lot and opening my mind!

PB

#25 ohhorror

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Posted 29 April 2003 - 08:59 AM

[glow=red,2,300]Psychoblonde[/glow]

I guess I can re-phrase it by say too critical, some investigators are so critical of not only their photos but of others as well that I feel some valid photos are slipping through the cracks. I have seen some automatically dismiss something in a photo without probing further, how many times have you heard “that’s just dust”, maybe it is and maybe it’s not.
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#26 flyingorb

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Posted 29 April 2003 - 01:10 PM

           
Hi Psychoblond,

QUOTE- that I don't feel I am educated enough to even understand what I believe. -QUOTE

I have seen very many "educated" people who are not intelligent and very many intelligent people who are not "educated".  Trust your instincts and go with what you are comfortable with within your own belief structure.  We all learn at our own pace and in our own time.  Don't automatically accept something just because it is presented by an "expert".  All the "experts" are dead and everything else is just people like you and me seeking answers.

You are right in that most orb pics are dust, water, pollen or other mundane causes.  However, don't close your mind to the possibilities that some are actually paranormal.  It is just extremely difficult to prove by photograph only.  I look to the circumstances surrounding the pic to tell the tale.  

Below is an attached pic of an orb for your consideration.  The red color is artificial to help bring out detail. The pic was shot in infrared.
CRY HAVOK! Let Slip The Chihuahuas Of War.....When an ORB dies.......a Chihuahua is born!

#27 MoonChild

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Posted 29 April 2003 - 10:02 PM

Nope, we are not getting into astrology. Probably this is a subject of vast research needs and we will discuss it later.
The reference was only to the Aquarian Age. It is said that when the Aquarian Age dawns on earth, there would be increased intrest in the Unexplained. I agree, some people use this a the NEW AGE and many of them just want to get noticed with all the bizzare attires and beliefs. But the real essence of knowledge in this age is our interest in the Good Old Wisdom. For eg: we in India itself talks about having a history of more than 6000 years (what is documented). What about the undocumented civilization and it's findings and knowledge? People have interest in the Egypt and Sumerian and Roman and other ancient knowledge because there are well documented. In India, it was always divided by language and caste and other minute things that most of the real stuff have not been preserved.
And education (by today's standards) is not the key for wisdom and knowledge. If it was, Bill Gates and Einstien and Edison would have gone to oblivion even without realizhing what they have achieved.
As the Great One said in the Holy Scripture called Bhagavath Geetha, the knowledge we don't use is not knowledge but stupidity! Why is that? Because the time we spend in acquiring the knowledge was totally wasted! The key is to make use of the knowledge we acquire and apply it in the right situation. What is the point in knowing the basic first aid techniques and not helping someone who is in the need! Not only is it a waste of time, but also a crime that we couldn't save someone's life.
I can go on talking here, as usual, but I may lose focus from the subject mentioned. (yes, I need to improve in my comunication skills, and I well on my way!)  ;)
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#28 krcguns

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 06:03 AM

Skeptics...I have seen proof (to me) that ghosts do exist.  I feel that in time you will also if you can manage an open mind.  I have found that "scientific" people always keep an open mind while doing their experiments.  They have to or they will overlook their own findings in the end.  You have to be willing to look at both sides of the coin in order to make a fair determination in the end.  So...I think that if there is no open mind on the "scientists" part he/she is unable to perform the experiment in the first place.  The first occurance for me was in a house where the previous owner blew his head off with a shotgun (I found out later).  I always felt watched and heard noises which I tried to explain off.  One night while watching T.V. (from where I could see the kitchen sink) the faucet (a lever type) suddenly opened up to full blast, the lever lifted straight up.  It never happened before or after.  There is no denying that one! :o  I only wish I had it on video tape!  Keep an open mind and you will see!!!
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#29 haunted

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 09:49 AM

..I have seen two things in my life time. Science isnt going to prove it and faith in it at times isnt enough...

I do believe that I have seen something. My eyes are proof enough.

#30 krcguns

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 06:16 PM

I think science will prove it...someday!!  It will take time but the technology is getting better and so are we.  It will happen and maybe it will be one of us that does it. ;D
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