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Something Believers need to keep in mind...


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#16 Paul_G

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 06:09 AM

I think proving this type of thing is impossible unless we have a ghost come and personally visit everyone in the world... and even then many people will think its an elaborate hoax. People just choose to shut that kind of thing out, and theres no point in losing sleep over it. I don't tell many people about my experiences because the responses are usually borderline insulting if I'm talking to a non-believer. The conversations usually go like this....

Me: I was walking around an abandoned prison and I would often hear footsteps and human whistling. Sometimes the whistle would come from within 3 feet of my head.

Skeptic: Well maybe there was someone else in there.

Me: Well, there was only one entrance, and I had the key to it. Also both the footsteps and whistles were close enough that I could see the point of origin and there was no-one there.

Skeptic: Well, maybe it was echoes. Or maybe a bird made the whistle.

Me: Dude, I know what a human whistle sounds like, and I can tell the difference between an echo and something happening 3 feet from my head....

...etc

My point is is that I do this for myself now, and I'm not concerned with needing to prove anything to anyone. I think half of the people I deal with, a ghost could materialize in front of them and whack them with a plank and they still wouldn't believe anything spooky was happening.

To be honest, I'm not a big believer in most pics that I see on sites. It's probably one of those things that if you were there, you KNOW, and if you weren't there, its just a picture of mist or a spot of light. You really have to be there to know what a ghostly happening is about... theres no substitute for it.

#17 MoonChild

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 07:25 AM

ITo be honest, I'm not a big believer in most pics that I see on sites. It's probably one of those things that if you were there, you KNOW, and if you weren't there, its just a picture of mist or a spot of light. You really have to be there to know what a ghostly happening is about... theres no substitute for it.


;) well put!
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#18 NocturnalCantaloupe

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 08:02 AM

I agree.  When I look at a picture, there seems to be so many unanswered questions about what time it was, the temperature, the people around you, the objects that were present around you, what the scene looked like around the picture... so amny questions.  This is why this skeptic is going to work at getting itno the thick of things.  To see for myself what really is around an area and the circumstances surruonding the photo at the exact time they are taken.  I think skeptics as a created rule, can't take the photographer's word for it.  I try to keep the photographers frame of reference and my own frame of reference in view at all times.  Not easy, but I try.
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#19 krcguns

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 09:16 AM

I don't do my investigations for anyone else either.  It is fun to have a forum like this to discuss and debate though.  I always have the realization that I am not going to change anyone's mind and I don't try.  I just try and make a good case for the things that I have experienced and collected evidence of.  It is a lot of fun for me.

I think that the most important key to all of this debate goes with what was said by Akthra about the surroundings.  Say for instance you live in a house that has strange occurances several times a week that you can't explain, noises like footsteps, whistling, crashing, doors slamming, etc.  you are very apt to say that there is something paranormal going on and when you get those pics of the strange light and even orbs you will tend to say that they are most likely paranormal.  Everyone else on the outside of that house in the world doesn't see the other 12 instances that weren't caught on film or tape that happened that week.  Perspective is very important. ;D
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#20 flyingorb

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 12:54 PM

 This is why this skeptic is going to work at getting itno the thick of things.  To see for myself what really is around an area and the circumstances surruonding the photo at the exact time they are taken.


Excellent!!!  Actually doing investigative fieldwork youself is always preferable to second/third hand experience.  No matter what conclusions you draw based on your own investigations, you have my respect.
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#21 stevenedel

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 03:25 PM

When it can't be anything mundane, what then would you call it?  

I would call it unexplained. If you cannot explain something, that does not make it paranormal.
But how do you rule out the possibility of anything mundane? Mundane explanations are readily at hand for any of the ghost pics or EVP or whatever that I came across.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#22 Brandon

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 05:26 PM

  yes i would also call it unexplained.

#23 MoonChild

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 10:42 PM

  yes i would also call it unexplained.


I have a difference of opinion here. If it is unexplained then what does it become? Remember the "foolish" old days where people had fear of eclipses? With their level of knowledge and thinking capacity, they didn't know what an exclipse was. If we hadn't the information today, YOU AND ME also could have been one among them who would have bowed down before the celestial entities ;) So, were the people foolish to be afraid of eclipses? No, they were not, they were just UNIFORMATIVE! Now, what you do with information also matters a lot. You come across an article, read it, understand it, either you ridicule it or accept it. But beyond that, do you actually try to GET to know by BEING THERE? We also should keep in thing in our discussion --> Human Mind and it's realms are still mystery. Time as we know it is NOT the real dimension of time. Brain and it's functions are far too beyond the understanding of todays science. The questions is not to BELIEVE all those hoaxes on the net, ADOBE PHOTOSHOP created dumb photos. But what IS the explanation for those photographs with orbs and mist and ectoplasm and more? Who are we to say the "cirsumstances" were phony? How solid can we say other dimensions does not exist? Am I foolish to ask you - are the life we have here actually real? Or are the thigns we consider dreams the REAL reality? :;)
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#24 stevenedel

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Posted 15 November 2003 - 05:02 AM

But what IS the explanation for those photographs with orbs and mist and ectoplasm and more?

Refraction of light in a camera lens? Cigarette smoke? Just plain mist? Some hair in the way of the lens? A developing error? I donīt know. But why assume it are ghosts? Why not assume it are alien spacecraft, or messages from god, or elves? How can you draw positive conclusions (this must be this or that) from negative input (I donīt know what it is)??
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#25 krcguns

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Posted 15 November 2003 - 05:21 AM

Stevenedel,  I would ask that you go over to the evp board and listen to the evp that is titled "Bound".  This evp was taken during an investigation and the first voice talking about binding the spirits is mine.  The last voice that is kind of whispering is not anyone's voice from any of the living people that were there.  There are five people that were there that can varify this fact.  Whispers-of-fire was with me the entire time that we had the tape in our possession and he was sitting right here when we first listened to it.  There was nothing added after the fact.  It is extremely clear so there will be no mistaking what is said.  Give it a listen and then I want to hear how you explain the voice on the tape. ;D
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#26 stevenedel

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Posted 15 November 2003 - 02:01 PM

I wouldnīt be so presumptuous as to explain the voice on the tape off hand: I wasnīt there when it was taped and know very little of the circumstances and of the people involved. I am curious though. The fragment is very short - is there a longer version, that gives some more īcontext'? Also, where is all the static and noise coming from? What kind of equipment were you using - it seems to me any up-to-date recording device would turn in a clearer recording. Was the tape that you used a fresh one, not used before? Could you verify that the people with you didnīt say anything, or are you going by their statements? What is the laughter I hear? Were you having fun (and if so, what was so funny?), or is that a ghost too?  Were the people with you all believers? What does binding a ghost mean? How do you do it? How do you know how to do it?

Mainly lots of questions, at this stage.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

#27 krcguns

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Posted 15 November 2003 - 04:42 PM

First of all, I would never use a tape that had been previously used.  As for any static, try and make a recording and listen to it...it will have background noise on it.  There were two people there that weren't really believers and YES, I can varify that it was nobody there that made the statement.  The laughter was from the people because we had just told the occupants that we should clean the spirits since there was at least one evil entity there.  They had said no, they wanted to keep them around longer and witness some more "stuff" before getting rid of the spirits.  I said that I didn't want to spirits to follow us home.  Then as you heard the statement about binding the spirits to the property so that they didn't do that.  Of course the tape and recording was longer (although this was the only part with a spirit voice) and you have to keep them to 250 KB to be posted here.  There, now you know the context and the facts surrounding the recording.  Now, keep grasping for straws....I'm sure it works some times!

Oh, almost forgot school......binding a spirit means to keep them there on the property so that they don't follow us.  pretty self explanatory huh? ;D
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#28 Paul_G

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Posted 15 November 2003 - 05:34 PM

These last few posts look a lot like the me/skeptic conversation I talked about in my last post in this thread. ;D

To be honest, orbs and so on don't do anything for me either. I need to see a human-like apparition somewhere before I really take a pic seriously.. I guess thats just based on personal experience, where I've never actually seen anything in conjunction with a ghostly happening and out of the few friends and so on who have, they've all seen recognizable apparitions. I mean to those of us who've never seen an orb in conjunction with a happening, you've got to admit that it is hard to accept that as proof of much. Some of those pics could be anything... Ghost would not be number one on my list of guesses. I'm saying that and I'm a believer... you can imagine what a real skeptic must think.

I believe in EVP because the people who've talked to me about it seem like credible guys who used a scientific approach. Of course not all of it is real but some of them, like Rockhauler's Shiloh EVP, seem pretty clear to me. But its hard to take a voice recording to a skeptic who is a complete stranger and tell him 'Hear that? That's a ghost!', and expect him to take you seriously.

Steven, if you don't believe but you are curious the best thing you can try is maybe go on a couple of hunts or hang out at some acquiantances house, who claims their house is haunted (everyone knows someone like that ;D). Spend time in places like that enough and something will almost certainly happen. Because regardless of what we say here, theres nothing anyone can do to prove 100% that these pics and such are real. You can poke holes in this stuff all day but if you haven't gone out and explored this subject for yourself then its pointless... It's like sitting in your apartment with the blinds closed your whole life and telling visitors that theres no such thing as a sun.

#29 Gregory

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Posted 15 November 2003 - 05:53 PM

Binding a spirit means to keep them there on the property so that they don't follow us.


How do you do that?
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#30 stevenedel

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Posted 18 November 2003 - 11:08 AM

hang out at some acquaintances house, who claims their house is haunted (everyone knows someone like that ).

Hm, well, actually uhm, I donīt.  :-[

As for any static, try and make a recording and listen to it...it will have background noise on it.  

Yes, it will have some, but not the kind that is as loud or louder than the sounds you are recording. Both on my job and in music I often use sound recorders and the result is always perfectly clean.

The laughter was from the people because we had just told the occupants that we should clean the spirits since there was at least one evil entity there.  They had said no, they wanted to keep them around longer and witness some more "stuff" before getting rid of the spirits.  

This I find really puzzling. Are ghost something like a theme park ride, or an interesting pet? Besides that, the joke eludes me. I would think if I were actually confronted with undeniable proof of the hereafter I would be pretty overawed and most definitely very serious!

I can varify that it was nobody there that made the statement.


How?

pretty self explanatory huh?

Except for the part, as Gregory pointed out, as to how you know how to do that.

Just a suggestion, by the way: if you want to interest other people in a subject you are more knowledgeable about than they are, derogation is not the best way to achieve your aim...

Iīm not grasping at any straws, just looking for an explanation. I do hope however that you do not really expect a tiny fragment of bad sound recording made under unclear but audibly jocular circumstances to suffice as conclusive proof of something as momentous as life after death.

Because regardless of what we say here, theres nothing anyone can do to prove 100% that these pics and such are real.

Not quite. You could start by taking a peek in a handbook on general scientific methodology, and begin gathering your data according to those guidelines. They still wonīt guarantee 100% certainty (what in life does, let alone after it?), but may bring you pretty close. That does require you however not to be too enthusiastic about your data too soon. You need to look at it, and more importantly, let others look at it, really critically. This is in fact what several parapsychological faculties at universities have been and are still doing. However, this scientific approach up till now has not yielded anything to support paranormal claims.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)




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