12 replies to this topic

[greg_dragonlvr]

Just wanted to stir up the murky water a little bit more with some boring tech stuff. The point of contact with a spirit and a voice/audio recording device has to be the microphone. It basically to this day a simple device with a membrane that will vibrate and some form of magnetic coupling elements to produce an electrical signal. A can and a tight string if you will. The recording device is looking at the string vibrate up and down. The analog(magnetic tape) recorder will take this vibration and convert it to mirror image magnetically and lay it down on the tape. The digital type,very simplified, takes a picture at some rate of the height of the string as it wiggles, and give it some number value. This value is then recorded. How fast it takes "pictures" of the string is called the sample rate. The more samples, the better looking the entire picture becomes. Sorry about the lecture, but the point of all this bla, bla, bla is that it's really unlikely that the spirit--some really old and very low tech--is going to interact with a recording device at this stage.
It seems to me that a lot of the technique people use is very hit-or-miss and they might be better served to have some better quality mikes in stationary locations so they can spend their time and energy doing what they care about instead of worring about how much tape and battery charge they have left.
Clear as mud, right? What do you all thinK?

[CaveRat2]

I agree with that as far as it goes. Two theories are proposed or EVPs, the first is as you mention here, a physical movement of a diaphram that induces an electric current which is amplified / recorded.

However a second method is electromagnetic. EVPs have been detected using a coil of wire with no diaphram. (Inductive) This would require a magnetic or electrical field interacting with the coil to create the voltage. These are sometimes blamed on RF fields and in fact that is quite possible.

However some claim these same magnetic fields have created EVPs INSIDE of a faraday cage. This would make the coil impervious to outside RF interference. plus, if the coil is connected to a low impedence balanced input no demodulation is possible. An RF field would not be detected due to common mode rejection.

Now the kicker? I have captured EVPs using both methods. So it comes back to the question, What is the nature of an EVP? Acoustic or energy? Both? The jury is still out on that one....

BTW, I fully concur regarding stationary microphones or sensors. Moving them or walking around while recording simply introduces anomalies that lead to false EVPs. Mics should be positioned and left alone while being used.

(Edsit to add last statement)

Edited by CaveRat, 19 August 2008 - 03:45 PM.

[GPPI_JMe]

So would the theory of telepathic imprinting on recording devices fall into the electromagnetic point of view? I could certainly see how it would fit - based on all the theory surrounding psi phenomena.

[greg_dragonlvr]

GPPI_JMe, on Aug 19 2008, 09:04 PM, said:

So would the theory of telepathic imprinting on recording devices fall into the electromagnetic point of view? I could certainly see how it would fit - based on all the theory surrounding psi phenomena.

This it good stuff, thanks for the input, Caverat. Inside the faraday's cage, to induce a signal would imply an a.c. or modulated d.c. field. This would produce the EVP but should also have some interaction with the cage as well, which should be in real-time. I've noticed from different posts, that most audio is not monitored during the sessions. But a simple Multi-meter set on milli-amp scale should show some activity if the EVP creation is an energy field. Might be worth a test, if the time line can be captured.
GPPI_JMe brings up a third point, which is a direct imprinting of the medium using "psychic" energy. This may be a possibility with the analog system, but I'm not sure how a thought pattern would convert itself through an analog-digital conversion process that the digital systems use.

[CaveRat2]

Imprinting would be the same as an EM Field. Of course that does not imply that an EM Field is responsible (We really don't know how it is done). But shielding does seem to block direct imprinting as it would RF or any other field. That is the reason for using an inductive pickup. Such a device will respond to an external field. Also by shielding the actual amplifier it means that some control has been established over how and where the field is picked up, i.e. the sensor. This is prefered over just having it coupled into the circuitry at random where the exact method is unknown.

To answer the second part of your comment, I agree it would be virtually impossible for any spirit or entity to direct couple a digital data stream and create a voice. However one must remember that even digital equipment has analog components to the circuitry. Microphone preamps and drivers ahead of the A to D section are by definition analog. These could be manipulated just as any analog circuit by stray fields either accidently or intentionally. Thus the importance of insuring any recorder, analog or digital, is well shielded against outside interference. Only the source device, microphones or inductors, should be exposed to allow for signal detection.

[Joven76]

CaveRat, on Aug 19 2008, 04:42 PM, said:

However a second method is electromagnetic. EVPs have been detected using a coil of wire with no diaphram. (Inductive) This would require a magnetic or electrical field interacting with the coil to create the voltage. These are sometimes blamed on RF fields and in fact that is quite possible.

However some claim these same magnetic fields have created EVPs INSIDE of a faraday cage. This would make the coil impervious to outside RF interference. plus, if the coil is connected to a low impedence balanced input no demodulation is possible. An RF field would not be detected due to common mode rejection.

You'll have to excuse me... I'm about to ask a stupid question, but I'm a little confuzzled (perhaps because I had an investigation last night and am only running on 2 hours of sleep)...

CaveRat - Are you saying that an EVP that was caught by a coil inside a Faraday cage created by an EMF???

[CaveRat2]

Joven76, on Aug 20 2008, 07:57 PM, said:

CaveRat - Are you saying that an EVP that was caught by a coil inside a Faraday cage created by an EMF???

No, The recorder and amplifier were located inside the cage. Only the inductive coil assembly was located outside, with RF filtering in place on the signal leads to insue that only a non-modulated field, not stray RF, was detected. The reason for doing it this way is to maintain control over how the field interacts with the sensor. That is, the only point of entry is through the sensor, not some stray signal bleeding in to the recorder electronics in an uncontrolled manner.

[Joven76]

Ok, I think I'm beginning to understand... Again, probably another stuipid question... Was the coil connected to the recorder, or just beside the box???

Edited by Joven76, 21 August 2008 - 11:11 AM.

[CaveRat2]

The coil was hard wired into the recorder. At its point of entry into the cage the wires were bypassed and inline low pass filters installed to prevent any RF intrusion inside the cage. Only the portion of the leads outside the cage, (about 12 inches) and the inductors were exposed to outside fields.

[Joven76]

Ahhhh... Now I understand... Thanks for the help...

[greg_dragonlvr]

CaveRat, on Aug 20 2008, 01:34 PM, said:

Imprinting would be the same as an EM Field. Of course that does not imply that an EM Field is responsible (We really don't know how it is done). But shielding does seem to block direct imprinting as it would RF or any other field. That is the reason for using an inductive pickup. Such a device will respond to an external field. Also by shielding the actual amplifier it means that some control has been established over how and where the field is picked up, i.e. the sensor. This is prefered over just having it coupled into the circuitry at random where the exact method is unknown.

To answer the second part of your comment, I agree it would be virtually impossible for any spirit or entity to direct couple a digital data stream and create a voice. However one must remember that even digital equipment has analog components to the circuitry. Microphone preamps and drivers ahead of the A to D section are by definition analog. These could be manipulated just as any analog circuit by stray fields either accidently or intentionally. Thus the importance of insuring any recorder, analog or digital, is well shielded against outside interference. Only the source device, microphones or inductors, should be exposed to allow for signal detection.

Took some of the discussion back to the shop and tried to tie some of the items together. Built a quicky faraday's cage and tried the mike, the low impedience wire and a pizo-electric sensor along with a rf generator and a walkie talkie for a source. Also tried several combinations of filters and shielding for the cable connections to the recorder (a techroncs o-scope), including a optic isolator.
The results were interesting, but the isuing mess of cables and components made any of these combinations way to complicated and time consuming for anyone actually trying to get any investigating done.
A couple of questions: Does the capture of EVP's occur with as much frequency in un-occupied areas as with ones with investigators present? And are the estimated ages of the spirits ususally creating the EVP fall within the era of recording devices--would the spirit know what a recorder is?

[YankeePyrate]

This is great stuff. My thought is that the era a spirit died in does not necessarily mean they can't or won't speak. Look at all the amazing Gettysburg evp out there. I think if they want to speak they will, whether you have a recording device rolling or not.
Interesting question on the frequency of evp obtained in "Active" vs. "Quiet" areas...I often wonder that as well. I can see active areas being more prone to it, simply because one is more likely to go there in hopes of recording evp than a place with no prior reports of activity. I've been experimenting in my home lately, which has zero activity as far as I can report, and I have successfully recorded a few evp files.

[CaveRat2]

vindalf59, on Aug 25 2008, 03:03 AM, said:

CaveRat, on Aug 20 2008, 01:34 PM, said:

Imprinting would be the same as an EM Field. Of course that does not imply that an EM Field is responsible (We really don't know how it is done). But shielding does seem to block direct imprinting as it would RF or any other field. That is the reason for using an inductive pickup. Such a device will respond to an external field. Also by shielding the actual amplifier it means that some control has been established over how and where the field is picked up, i.e. the sensor. This is prefered over just having it coupled into the circuitry at random where the exact method is unknown.

To answer the second part of your comment, I agree it would be virtually impossible for any spirit or entity to direct couple a digital data stream and create a voice. However one must remember that even digital equipment has analog components to the circuitry. Microphone preamps and drivers ahead of the A to D section are by definition analog. These could be manipulated just as any analog circuit by stray fields either accidently or intentionally. Thus the importance of insuring any recorder, analog or digital, is well shielded against outside interference. Only the source device, microphones or inductors, should be exposed to allow for signal detection.

Took some of the discussion back to the shop and tried to tie some of the items together. Built a quicky faraday's cage and tried the mike, the low impedience wire and a pizo-electric sensor along with a rf generator and a walkie talkie for a source. Also tried several combinations of filters and shielding for the cable connections to the recorder (a techroncs o-scope), including a optic isolator.
The results were interesting, but the isuing mess of cables and components made any of these combinations way to complicated and time consuming for anyone actually trying to get any investigating done.
A couple of questions: Does the capture of EVP's occur with as much frequency in un-occupied areas as with ones with investigators present? And are the estimated ages of the spirits ususally creating the EVP fall within the era of recording devices--would the spirit know what a recorder is?

To begin with you are corrct, to cobble something together, other than as an experiment in a lab, would be impractical. The techniques used, Faraday cage, and such, must be integrated into the design of the equipment before it becomes practical to use in an actual investigation. I use filters developed by experiments as a part of the actual equipment when custom electronics devices are built. They are not add-ons unless I am testing some new theory, then I may build something as such. For instance, in the EVamP2 system there is no identifiable component called a Faraday shield. Rather the case itself is built of ferromagnetic material and feedtrough filters employed where any leads extend beyond the case. Single point grounding is designed into the construction of the amplifiers. Thus the case itself is the shield.

Now you second questions. I find whether or not an area is occupied makes little difference as a whole. However certain cases EVPs seem to be more prevelent if an attempt at communication is done while other locations may be more passive. Equipment or other factors seem to make little difference, rather it may be a factor as to what causes the EVP itself. That we don't know.

Which brings up the second factor. You mention the age of the spirit. I will take that back a step further and ask," How do we even know it IS a spirit?" While I can't prove it isn't, I would challenge anyone to prove conclusively it is. Truth is we don't really know where EVPs come from. Another theory is a parallel universe. That has just as much to prove it as the spirit idea.

But I will agree, we live in an analog world. It seems that whatever the source, spirit or alien entity or whatever, that it would be much easier to "send" a message using basic sound or analog method than to try to create a digital replica of the message and couple that to a digital recorder directly.