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what criteria to use to decide if a medium is genuine/fake?


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#16 JimDe

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 10:38 AM

...that being said;

…one could also argue that certain mainstream media outlets would require presenting cases of extreme ability in order to promote them as specialized programming interests to their audience (a documentary on mediums and the paranormal). That being the case, I for one would be intrigued to see what mainstream media considers being legitimate paranormal activities and/or abilities …and particularly when its efforts are supported by modern research facilities specializing in paranormal behavior.

(…and thanks for the hug.)
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#17 Gosman

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 07:58 PM

Those you speak of within your reference are in the practice of faith, not of faith; and they are not a group, but a person or persons who have caused a impact on your thinking. There is a distinct difference. There are many within religion who are spiritual and faithful, but not "simply practicing faith"....


I'm sorry but this seems very difficult to understand. Can you try and simplify what you mean?

Are you implying that people who follow the traditional religious beliefs of Christianity or Islam are not truly following their faith or perhaps don't understand it?

How can you say that you know better than they what the motivation and reasoning is behind what they believe?

Too me it seems you are doing what you claim others are not entitled to do 'proof of what lies in another's mind and soul'

#18 Gosman

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 08:13 PM

...that being the case, I for one would be intrigued to see what mainstream media considers being legitimate paranormal activities and/or abilities …and particularly when its efforts are supported by modern research facilities specializing in paranormal behavior.


Why don't you contact someone, (or better still a number of people), from a mainstream media organisation and ask them what they think on the subject?

#19 thesameones

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:26 AM

Those you speak of within your reference are in the practice of faith, not of faith; and they are not a group, but a person or persons who have caused a impact on your thinking. There is a distinct difference. There are many within religion who are spiritual and faithful, but not "simply practicing faith"....


I'm sorry but this seems very difficult to understand. Can you try and simplify what you mean?

Are you implying that people who follow the traditional religious beliefs of Christianity or Islam are not truly following their faith or perhaps don't understand it?

How can you say that you know better than they what the motivation and reasoning is behind what they believe?

Too me it seems you are doing what you claim others are not entitled to do 'proof of what lies in another's mind and soul'


With your first couple of posts it appeared that you were sincere, that you were looking for interaction and oportunity to expand thought. With your last two it is apparent that you are looking for arguement. Clearly you did not position the topic for the purpose of exchange. You know darn well that I meant nothing of the sort which you state. Altering what I wrote and implying that I said some thing different is cause to me to simply ignore you from this point on. My time and effort are valuable. I don't like to waste them on people looking for trouble.

#20 Cautious-Psychic13

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:28 PM

;) thesameones, I don't get the feeling he is looking for an argument but that we have frustrated him with our atypical nonlinear thinking. We are a hard bunch to just look up and slide into. I hope he starts another post with another question to restart this dialog.

And Gosman... Keep asking for clarifications if you don't get it if answers are why you are here. You don't need to agree with anyone as long as you understand what it is your not agreeing with. Viva La Differance!!!!! As much as we would like people to be less skeptical about our beliefs we know we are not mainstream thinking. I know I come here for acceptance and communion because I am differant. I really hope you are not here to bust our chops because there is enough of that out of the village. :ghost:

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#21 OMPRDave

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:55 PM

I wrote up a questionnaire to use when interviewing somebody who is claiming to be a sensitive/psychic that I would like to use on an investigation. It's not unlike a standard questionnaire used to interview people claiming hauntings/any other phenomena, and I make use to cleverly placed but subtly redundant questions to see if I get the same responses. I also let them know that I am an open-minded, skeptical researcher, and that I am evaluating their abilities as much as the phenomena I am researching. I've only had one agree to go under the microscope, and he did fine during the interview.

However, when we got to the location (he ha even agreed to be blindfolded, which I told him wasn;t necessary!) his psychic or sensitive abilities were limited to telling us that the room we were in felt cold (because the heat was off and it was cold), or warm (because the heat was on), and that he could probably guess as to when the place was built (we knew the constriction date - he wasn't close). He also had a great knack for knowing why certain windows were placed where they were...funny, because every house has windows, and this location had over 50 windows. In the end I determined that he was just a very observant fellow, but he wasn't able to exhibit true signs of psychic or sensitive abilities.

When I place an ad for a sensitive/psychic now, I claim right in the ad that I am involving them in a full study of the paranormal and also psychic/sensitive abilities. I've had a few who still agree to it, and I'll be forming more studies on their abilities as their use in new cases comes up.

Edited by OMPRDave, 29 November 2008 - 12:56 PM.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#22 Mark London

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 03:16 PM

Hi

I agree with what most of you guys are saying, but there are absolutely fantastic mediums and psychics out there that we dont know of, that just dont want to accept their gift, its a shame, but those that dont adverstise that fact they have these gifts shouldn't have to prove anything. As long as they are true themselves and they doing good then I say let be.

But as I said I totally agree, there are so many charlatans out there that give the good guys a bad name

Mark :Spaz:

#23 Cautious-Psychic13

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 08:05 PM

:Spaz: As my name implies I am a cautious psychic. I know that there can be feelings and sensations that have nothing to do with psychic abilities. I know I have an active imagination that could totally run away with itself if I let it so I am very carefull before I declare something that is happening to me as psychic. When everything non-paranormal has been ruled out I am left with what I know after a half century of experiance is my psychic self. Asking redundant questions is a psychological way of testing as well. I understand skeptics wanting to try and trick us up but I am curious as why they are so sure spirits don't exist. To me a skeptic should be skeptical of anything claiming to be an absolute. I am skeptical of anyone claiming they have an answer for everything that discludes the possibility of the paranormal. :ghost:
Sharon

#24 OMPRDave

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 09:31 PM

:Spaz: As my name implies I am a cautious psychic. I know that there can be feelings and sensations that have nothing to do with psychic abilities. I know I have an active imagination that could totally run away with itself if I let it so I am very carefull before I declare something that is happening to me as psychic. When everything non-paranormal has been ruled out I am left with what I know after a half century of experiance is my psychic self. Asking redundant questions is a psychological way of testing as well. I understand skeptics wanting to try and trick us up but I am curious as why they are so sure spirits don't exist. To me a skeptic should be skeptical of anything claiming to be an absolute. I am skeptical of anyone claiming they have an answer for everything that discludes the possibility of the paranormal. :ghost:
Sharon

Why shouldn't anyone who doesn't have so called "psychic" abilities be skeptical, especially if they are researching paranormal phenomena? There isn't one ounce of factual evidence to support that anybody has any kind of psychic abilities. Sure, studies have been done, but there was never any evidence to support what is happening or what it is. And, unfortunately for those who may have a real ability, you have the frauds like Johnathan Edwards and Sylvia Browne who make a mockery of it all.

And asking redundant questions would only "trip up" those who aren't being truthful, not somebody who is being sincere (well, a person with a good script would probably have the answers down as well, but that is why I ask the questions the way I do).

So try not to be skeptical of those who seek proof...asking questions and studying things will only help us to get where we need to, and that is understanding.

Edited by OMPRDave, 29 November 2008 - 09:34 PM.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#25 canuck

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:05 AM

Actually, this would be a good time to point you to the book I referred to in a parallel thread: “Ghost Hunters: William James and the search for scientific proof of life after death.” Scroll down on the sceptics index page for the link to this thread.

This book details some of the studies that were performed by William James and the Society for Psychic Research. They spent a lot of time debunking fake psychics, and ultimately found one who seems to be the genuine article; specifically: Leonora Piper.

The people who conducted these investigations were very competent scientists, and some of them went on to win Nobel prizes in more conventional areas of science. So reading this book, and following up with the SPR should provide you with a lot of useful information.

You will probably be interested in the study they performed in which they asked questions through one psychic, in Latin, and received the answers through another psychic, in Latin, on another continent.

#26 Cautious-Psychic13

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:30 PM

:ghost: I totally agree that proof is needed in all areas of science and to blindly believe someone like Sylvia Browne has the answers to everything as her books seem to indicate she does but what is proof? I don't believe just anyone or anything and I admit there are frauds everywhere but I have had enough proof to me in person to know EVP's can be real, apparitions can be real and objects do move on there own. It is too bad not everyone has had the opportunity to experiance as yet unexplainable phenonamon but I have so I believe. I myself am a skeptic when it comes to alien abductions, Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster but for those who feel they have enough proof I wouldn't tell them they were wrong.

I guess sometimes I feel like I am being called a fraud or a fool. I am neither. I would like everyone who thinks the paranormal is a joke being perpetuated on the weak minded to attend an honest investagation and talk to people who where non-believers but have since had a personal experiance. The dictionary defines a skeptic as 1. one who questions the fundamental doctrines of religion 2. one who refuses concurrance in generally accepted conclusions in science, philosophy, ect..

Skeptics are important to keep us moving forward but for some there will never be enough proof. On a case to case basis I have all the proof I need and that is all that I can ask for. Skeptics are right to not accept what they have not experianced just as I am obligated to acknowledge what I know is true.

Sharon

#27 OMPRDave

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 05:37 PM

Actually, this would be a good time to point you to the book I referred to in a parallel thread: “Ghost Hunters: William James and the search for scientific proof of life after death.” Scroll down on the sceptics index page for the link to this thread.

This book details some of the studies that were performed by William James and the Society for Psychic Research. They spent a lot of time debunking fake psychics, and ultimately found one who seems to be the genuine article; specifically: Leonora Piper.

The people who conducted these investigations were very competent scientists, and some of them went on to win Nobel prizes in more conventional areas of science. So reading this book, and following up with the SPR should provide you with a lot of useful information.

You will probably be interested in the study they performed in which they asked questions through one psychic, in Latin, and received the answers through another psychic, in Latin, on another continent.

It was a great book. What I really felt bad about with all the studies the SPR was conducting back then was that they all seemed to drop dead before the pieces of the puzzle fell together. C'est la vie, I guess.

I follow three guidelines on anything I question:

Take the claim at face value, no matter how outrageous it may sound.
Begin a skeptical, open-minded inquiry and study.
Only fomrulate an opinion once I have enough to base them on.

Simple, but it works!
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#28 canuck

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:43 PM

What I really felt bad about with all the studies the SPR was conducting back then was that they all seemed to drop dead before the pieces of the puzzle fell together. C'est la vie, I guess.


Ahhh yes, but what you forget is that at least two of the investigators came back, after they dropped dead!

C'est la mort!

#29 JimDe

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:27 PM

I think it’s a little creepy too be communing with the dead.
I’ll stipulate that they’re dead.
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#30 Cautious-Psychic13

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 06:30 PM

:ghost:

I think it’s a little creepy too be communing with the dead.
I’ll stipulate that they’re dead.

:ghost: Sometimes I am not sure what we mean about them being dead. If we mean they are no longer considered alive in the world I agree but I am not sure dead is the right term. What if they aren't dead just missing a body? Things to consider.... :ghost:

Edited by Cautious-Psychic13, 04 December 2008 - 06:31 PM.





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