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#16 thesameones

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 03:39 PM

Have you considered expertise through experience?

Your post is well stated, but I'd really prefer that my thoracic surgeon be board certified - irrespective of her experience.


Your response is well taken. It appears, however, we may be in too different position and place on spiritual issues to engage in any sort of mutually beneficial exchange. Given I don't wish to turn debate; I'm mostly passive with interaction and chose to contribute for thought rather than to debate for proof. I don't see proof manifesting in my life time, but :ghost: those who seek it. No quest is with out some result and reward. Funny thing about end results is that they rarely turn to be what we anticipate or expect. It may (or may not) interest you that my belief in spiritual matters was formed late in life. Discovery and revelation were contrary to what I had perceived as reality for most of my life. My position arrived late in life, as I have been around the block a few times my self. I am a "Old Gal" who has arrived to the place I am incorporating a life time of history and experience determining my reality based upon a whole of all I have come to learn and live. Considering, this makes me a tough nut to crack where change of direction in thought and belief are concerned. ;)

#17 CaveRat2

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 04:11 PM

I hope you were not pertaining to me Cave. :ghost:
I know quite a bit about photography, my husband was a professional photographer, he has taught me a lot over the years. I may not be an expert in the "lingo" but I understand it.
I try to use both my gifts and what I know about photography in what I do in trying to help others and in my own investigations. I have done so for over 24 years due to my own home and neighborhood.
What I try to do here, is help others understand both things. What they have presented as evidence or otherwise. I know I may say something about a photo, but I always try to add that what I am getting is not showing in the actual photo. I have been validated many times with this. I also do remote viewings with investigators who have asked me to help them out a bit. I have also been validated while doing this too. Its not proof by any means, but it does help them understand if the place is actually haunted or not and who might be there and why. Many here on GV know how well I do this.
Sorry, I just needed to add my bit to this. I am not one who just "feels" things. Tho there are plenty of those out there who make claims and they mess things up for investigators and amatures alike.

Les


Not not singling anyone out or attacking anyone. But maybe I can use your post to relate.

You say you have some experience dealing with photography. Based on that suppose I came to you with a picture that had an obvious (to you) photographic anomaly caused by something stupid I did with my camera. Let's say a large lens flare across the frame. To make it worse, I took the picture toward the sun, it's that obvious because the sun is barely out of frame.

Yet I stand there and argue that the spirit in the picture is old Uncle Charley, I know it is because I feel he is there. I have no other evidence, just my say so against your expertise in photography.

Furthermore I go so far as to say you don't know what you are talking about. Lens flare.... It can't be lens flare because I said so. That's all there is to it.

Quite frustrating isn't it. Yet that is what happens daily with many who base everything just on feelings. Don't get me wrong here, I know and have worked with sensitives. I value their input. But often some go to extremes discounting the obviuos and expecting me to throw out reason in order to make the case fit their feelings. That is my point, not to attack all believers as frauds or otherwise belittle them.

#18 Puti

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 05:25 PM

Since I'm the one always talking about "feelings", I have to make it clear that I'm not putting down the hard work of the real investigators. But I feel;-) that I have to incorporate all of it, like when talking to a friend or one of my kids. The person talking to me has a story to tell. ( I'm not a paranormal investigator) If they are convinced it's old Uncle Charlie, and that gives them some comfort, spiritually and otherwise then let it go I say, even when I know it was some natural happening or whatever. People come with all their life's experiences plus cultural backround, religious beliefs, family superstitions etc and that colors everything for them when they have an experience of the paranormal kind.
I think we need it all.....the scientific evidence plus a good "backround check" on where this story or photo or what have you is coming from.
I'll shut up now.
"We grow neither better or worse as we get old, but more like ourselves."May L. BeckerCoffee.......the foundation of consciousness

#19 Laurie Ann

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 07:36 PM

~I just couldn't have said it better myself.


Since I'm the one always talking about "feelings", I have to make it clear that I'm not putting down the hard work of the real investigators. But I feel;-) that I have to incorporate all of it, like when talking to a friend or one of my kids. The person talking to me has a story to tell. ( I'm not a paranormal investigator) If they are convinced it's old Uncle Charlie, and that gives them some comfort, spiritually and otherwise then let it go I say, even when I know it was some natural happening or whatever. People come with all their life's experiences plus cultural backround, religious beliefs, family superstitions etc and that colors everything for them when they have an experience of the paranormal kind.
I think we need it all.....the scientific evidence plus a good "backround check" on where this story or photo or what have you is coming from.
I'll shut up now.


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#20 OMPRDave

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 11:45 PM

One of the best analogies I can think of is the Santa Claus scenario.

You are told that a man comes to your home on Christmas Eve after you've gone to bed. He flies onto your roof in a sleigh pulled by 8 flying reindeer, with a sack that has enough presents for every kid on the planet, barring the bad ones that he observed from his North Pole hideaway during the year.

He comes down your chimney with this sack, and places gifts for you underneath your tree. When he's done, he munches on some cookies you left for him, and washes them down with some milk. He then goes back to the chimney and is magically brought back up to his waiting team. He repeats this all night, delivering gifts all over the world to billions of people.

Now, you wake in the morning and you have some pretty conclusive evidence to corroborate the Santa story you were told. There are indeed presents under the tree, the cookies are gone, and the milk is, too. You call your friends, and they report the same thing - a load of gifts and missing milk and cookies. It would seem that Santa Claus did come, just like the story claimed. You are still a bit skeptical, and propose an experiment for next Christmas.

Christmas rolls around again, but this year you are prepared. You've rigged a motion detecting camera aimed at your chimney, and have placed a few cctv cameras watching the roof, the tree, and the milk and cookie bait. Heading back up to your room, you turn on the monitors and wait for the jolly fat guy to make an appearance. As you watch, you see your parents come into frame, placing gifts under the tree. You watch as one of them eats the cookies and drinks the milk. As they head to the fireplace to fill the stockings, they trip the motion activated camera and you get a couple of very detailed shots of your surprised parents.

So here we have two very different scenarios. Just the year before, it was easy to believe that Santa Claus came down the chimney. A year later, with a little in-depth investigation, you find out it's mom and dad pulling off the Christmas caper. But for the whole year before you got your evidence, you were quite ok in believing that it was indeed Santa, and no amount of swaying would convince you otherwise.

And so it's the same with paranormal experiences. You can believe that the cold spot and mysterious noises you hear at night are the spirit of Uncle Charlie, and until you try and find out exactly what is going on, it can be very easy to stay with that belief. But after letting some knowledgeable people into your home who have experience researching paranormal claims in detail, they determine the cold spot is caused by a drafty window near your bed and the noises you are hearing are the expansion of your heater pipes as hot water travels through the system.

I think what Jim was trying to get at is there are so many that will still believe it's Santa Claus bringing those gifts and eating the goodies even though the evidence says otherwise. There are many who are very knowledgeable in certain proven sciences such as audio recording, photography, videography, and even construction who offer reasonable advice on the different types of data submitted claiming paranormal activity. It's important to take what is said into consideration, because it helps explain the very normal things we can capture. Once you learn how to decipher these normal things, it's alot easier to pinpoint actual unexplainable phenomena when it's there. But just believing it's Santa, or Uncle Charlie, doesn't mean that what is on film or in an audio recording is proof they were visiting at that particular point in time. And sometimes it's the firm belief in light of being informed what is really going on that keeps us from learning.

The credo I stick with is simple - I don't know what I don't know. that's why I try to learn as much as I can when it comes to researching and investigating before I make determinations.

Ok, I don't know if that is what Jim meant, really, but that's what I got from it.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#21 CaveRat2

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 09:21 AM

Dave you are exactly right. If someone takes the time to begin to question then they should be willing to accept the answer. To take your Santa Claus scenario one step father, consider this. After capturing your evidence you take it to Joey next door who is also a believer. You show him the video, the still pictures, and all of your evidence. Joey turns around and calls you a liar, says you made it all up, ain't so. That's where we are at with some of the die-hard believers. Not only do they want to believe, but to them anything you do that doesn't take their beliefs into account starts an argument. Worse still they claim that any who question them just don't see the whole picture, even though the hard evidence is there to counter their claims.

Different story if there was no scientific evidence. Then we might stop and ask for the psychic feelings and impressions. There are cases out there that do fall into that realm too, not everything is so easily explained. For instance, back to Santa. Suppose you set up all this stuff, got no pictures, fuzzy, blurred video, nothing conclusive. Yet next day the presents were there. Now what does that prove?

A couple possibilities. First, maybe your experiment was flawed. Santa came through the front door, not the chimney and you were looking in the wrong place. Second, maybe your equipment was flawed, something didn't work as it should and he got past your stuff. Or maybe your parents were wise to the whole thing and decided to teach you a lesson by circumventing your project. Or maybe, based on your results he is real. Four possibiliies that more closely mirror the state of research today into the paranormal.

The believer looks at the fuzzy video and sees Santa and his sack of toys in it. That's all the proof he needs, case closed. The skeptic blames the equipment, The hoaxster of course points to your parents pulling a fast one, and you go back to the drawing board to determine what aent wrong.

Which leaves us with two options. Either repeat the experiment taking what we learn to improve on it or follow the believers and take it all on faith. For the believer who is satisfied and content in their belief, then don't question. Don't submit evidence. just stay in and enjoy your belief. For the researcher, continue on. Tear apart every theory and see if it can be explained. Use every tool at your disposal. There will always be disagreement when the two meet..

#22 Old Guy

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 11:22 AM

Considering, this makes me a tough nut to crack where change of direction in thought and belief are concerned. :devil:

Though we may stand on opposing sides, I get a sense that we actually have much in common. The one belief that I hold true, is that all my questions will eventually be answered. Perhaps due only to my own awarness of my mortality, I'm driven by curiosity to understand what I can of the here and now. Being a technophile, I *want* something more tangible.

Peace, and the happiest of new years!
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#23 thesameones

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 04:43 PM

"The credo I stick with is simple - I don't know what I don't know. that's why I try to learn as much as I can when it comes to researching and investigating before I make determinations."

Good approach. Well phrased. This is why I try not to be cynical of others. The spiritual encounter can be very complicated involving more than images, manifestations, sounds, smells and feelings. In my experience there are years of telepathic encounters with spirit that the images seem suported by and these are far too personal to dismiss. Things that have not been spoken to other persons which come into the experience and combined with physical examples become pieces of puzzles. Since observation does not allow me to live inside another I try to accept most people and their claims as honest in at least as much as they believe them truth. I am not a investigator, and I don't like to argue for arguement sake, so I have no need to validate or invalidate another person's claim. It is good, however, that there are those out there who seek truth through research.

#24 thesameones

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 04:50 PM

Considering, this makes me a tough nut to crack where change of direction in thought and belief are concerned. :Spaz:

Though we may stand on opposing sides, I get a sense that we actually have much in common. The one belief that I hold true, is that all my questions will eventually be answered. Perhaps due only to my own awarness of my mortality, I'm driven by curiosity to understand what I can of the here and now. Being a technophile, I *want* something more tangible.

Peace, and the happiest of new years!

Well Old Guy, we at least have this curious quest in common. Adding to the response those of us who psychically cross parameters consider that the here and now well could be the then and there, l.o.l. :devil:

#25 Old Guy

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 05:18 PM

Well Old Guy, we at least have this curious quest in common. Adding to the response those of us who psychically cross parameters consider that the here and now well could be the then and there, l.o.l. :devil:

LOL! I'll be lookin' fer ya on the other side. :Spaz:
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#26 Laurie Ann

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 05:38 PM

WAIT...WAIT...WAIT...just WAIT a DOG-GONE minute!!!!! THAT'S IT!! What in the heck??!! Are you SERIOUS??!! You mean to tell me that Santa isn't REAL??!!
~Women are angels...and when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly...on a broomstick. We're flexible like that.~

#27 canuck

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 05:53 PM

WAIT...WAIT...WAIT...just WAIT a DOG-GONE minute!!!!! THAT'S IT!! What in the heck??!! Are you SERIOUS??!! You mean to tell me that Santa isn't REAL??!!

Yea right! And next they will be saying that the Easter Bunny is not real either!

These guys are getting awful close to stepping over the line.

#28 Old Guy

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 07:44 PM

You mean to tell me that Santa isn't REAL??!!

Whoa there, Partner. Them's fightin' words!!! Who said that???

Dave didn't say that. He was merely exploring Santa's methods of ingress.
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#29 OMPRDave

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 11:54 PM

I plead the fifth on the Santa thing...well, at least until my youngest sets some cameras up around the chimney :devil:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#30 canuck

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 01:38 AM

You mean to tell me that Santa isn't REAL??!!

Whoa there, Partner. Them's fightin' words!!! Who said that???

Dave didn't say that. He was merely exploring Santa's methods of ingress.


Hmmmmmmmmm.................

Yes, I see now that he was merely presenting a fanciful hypothesis.

Had me worried for a minute there.




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