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#31 Retro

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 09:46 PM

The single most convincing paranormal activity for those that witness it is poltergesit activity. I have personally witnessed a rolling pin fly across the room and nearly hit my mother and I.

But:

A. Poltergesit activity is VERY VERY rare and unpredictable.
B. Nobody credible has ever captured it on film (or rather, film just isn't good enough evidence and therefore we cannot find the person to be absolutely credible.)

Are there any suggestions for how we can measure this, and if by some chance a researcher manages to captures something, what can be done to make it bulletproof evidence data-wise?

I have been thinking alot about siesmic detectors lately. Something in the form of a small device that can be put on a floor and is mechanically isolated from the floor itself. I don't think I would have any problem building such a device, but obviously it would require a great deal of testing. Since I have had only a very few instances of poltergesit activity my entire life, I don't suspect the spirits will come out of the woodwork to help me test this.

What I would probably need to do is work with someone that believes that this is occurring frequently for them, train them how to use the device and how to gather the data that I will need (or have my device log this for me.)

Any suggestions?

#32 OMPRDave

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 11:12 PM

I think it would take a legal affidavit signed by some pretty credible sources to verify they witnessed the phenomena as it occurred. Unfortunately you'll always have those who will not believe any evidence, no matter how credible. But heck, there are people who don't believe we didn't land on the moon. It's the scientific community we're out to impress, not the die-hard disbeliever.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#33 Puti

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 02:24 AM

I'm finding this thread exciting and so interesting!
Retro, I swear you are driving me to sleeplessness!!;-)
I'm still trying to understand that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but that's a different subject.
I never believed that poltergeist activity came from some spirit so I guess you can call me one of those real skeptics.
Carry on you guys!
"We grow neither better or worse as we get old, but more like ourselves."May L. BeckerCoffee.......the foundation of consciousness

#34 Retro

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:25 AM

I think it would take a legal affidavit signed by some pretty credible sources to verify they witnessed the phenomena as it occurred. Unfortunately you'll always have those who will not believe any evidence, no matter how credible. But heck, there are people who don't believe we didn't land on the moon. It's the scientific community we're out to impress, not the die-hard disbeliever.



LOL Dave, if that is all it would really take, then we already have to admit that UFOs exist. There ARE legal affidavits from credible sources including pilots, scientists, and police officers.

Yet, the "scientific community" still laughs at anyone that suggests it (I have never witnessed UFO phenomenon btw.)

Honestly, it is going to require more than that. And that was the whole purpose of this thread in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't think a single full-blown skeptic has responded. Everyone here has experienced something that they believe was paranormal. So, the conversation was purposefully turned to discussing this among us, who aren't simply content with believing it, but instead want to actually prove it.

You are right though (but with a wierd double-negative) about the moon landing. From your wording it sounds like you don't belive that we landed on the moon (not that I want this to turn into a discussion of that.) I'm sure it was unintentional, but still funny. :(

Personally, I would be content with having something repeatable and reliable, even if only a relative few could experience it or would believe it. Science has its dogmas, too, so I am not necessarily concerned with impressing them. I do not expect it to happen, at least in my lifetime, when it comes to paranormal research.

#35 Retro

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:31 AM

Puti,

What do you theorize is the cause of poltergeist activity?

#36 Moregan

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:42 AM

I never believed that poltergeist activity came from some spirit so I guess you can call me one of those real skeptics.


I think that the most common explanation (within the paranormal community) for poltergeist activity is that it's caused by living humans who are suffering from stress or are in puberty. It may be caused by psychokinesis (mind moves matter).

Edited by Moregan, 21 January 2009 - 11:47 AM.

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#37 Retro

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 12:42 PM

I never believed that poltergeist activity came from some spirit so I guess you can call me one of those real skeptics.


I think that the most common explanation (within the paranormal community) for poltergeist activity is that it's caused by living humans who are suffering from stress or are in puberty. It may be caused by psychokinesis (mind moves matter).



Interesting. All of my poltergeist experiences, except for one, fit both of those explanations at the time that they occurred. And that one other experience fit for stress (I was 20 at the time.) In my Personal Experiences thread, I detail these experiences.

Of course, there were other times that I was both stressed and going through puberty that did not result in poltergeist activity. Many more times than I experienced activities. I think science would toss that out for that reason alone.

Add to that the fact that the stress I was feeling at the time was not something extraordinary.

Interesting points to consider, but difficult to accept as an explanation.

#38 Puti

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 05:52 PM

Oh! I was asked a question.....now I have to think?
poltergeist activity..... just my opinion, which is never set in stone. I feel like it's all from the human mind. Emotions are things. Have you ever walked in a room where a heated argument has just taken place and you can still feel it? At this point, I even lean towards thinking that injuries people suffer, blaming it on spirits, like scratches, being pushed, hit etc. come from the mind. I should end there. Don't want to change the subject of this most interesting topic.
"We grow neither better or worse as we get old, but more like ourselves."May L. BeckerCoffee.......the foundation of consciousness

#39 canuck

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 06:25 AM

Retro:

If somebody could develop a helmet that induced visions of ghosts in people, that would only address a small part of the issue.

In order for such an experiment to be meaningful in spookology, you would have to definitively explain how and why the helmet worked; then conclusively demonstrate that the phenomena that helmeted people were observing was the same one that non helmeted people were observing.

Then you would have to explain how and why such observations were being made by people without helmets.

However, such experiments would add to our body of knowledge anyway; regardless of result. As is said in German: “keine antwort ist auch eine antwort”. (I flunked German in high school.)

The investigation of psychics has seen some solid and reputable work. You should read the book which I noted in an earlier post: “Ghost Hunters” by Debra Blum. Also check out “The Society for Psychical Research”.

You might also check out: “The Conscious Universe” by Dean Radin.

Your comments about assumptions are valid; but assumptions and the testing of assumptions is what makes knowledge progress; they lead to theories, which when tested, ultimately lead to knowledge.

This is what is lacking in Spookology today: a foundation of tested assumptions, and a testable theoretical framework.

We have a long way to go.

#40 Retro

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 07:14 AM

Retro:


Well I hope you aren't minding the hypothetical questions. I don't mean for them to sound argumentative, if they do. I guess I am just trying to get an understanding of what "research" could mean in a field like this. Since EVPs, Temp changes, EMF fields, etc... rely solely on the assumption that ghosts actually caused them, it is a dead end (pun intended) in my opinion. It will never provide evidence that will be accepted. So, I am trying to think of hypothetical scenarios "outside the box" and then hopefully stimulating conversation about how it could be tested and proven. I am not a scientist, I am an electrical engineer. So forgive me if I take some liberties with science.

Unfortunately, although I have had what I believed to be paranormal experiences, I do not have steady or ready access to it to provide much in the way of testing.

Thanks for responses, they are extremely helpful.

#41 CaveRat2

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:36 AM

I for one welcome non-traditional opinions. Frankly I question many of the supposed "facts" about ghosts. For one, I always say, show me the proof a ghost is a spirit of the dead. So far, a lot of talk, no proof has been forthcoming. Therefore, in my opinion all theories are still on the table. Ghosts, spirits, energy, multiple dimensions, aliens, demons, psychokenesis, hallucinations, even outright fakery. All are still open as explanations until such time as someone brings in the definitive proof as to what is actually responsible.

That is why I continue to work on new equipment and concepts. Ideas are welcome, as is thinking outside the box. The comments regarding using seismic detection methods has merit. In fact that is the direction I feel use of infrasound may be beneficial. Sound and vibrations are very similar, and deetction methods related. Therefore it may come down to the method of displaying the results. Do we listen to them, show movement on a meter, or display it on an oscilloscope? Each method may have certain benefits, so I would recommend using a datalogger or recorder capable of directly recording low frequency and later examining the data using various methods.

The question was asked about polterguist activity and where it originates. I have never had any case where such activity was directly observed, unless you consider a lamp being thrown. This one was actually fairly well observed and under a monitored condition. Later evidence seemed to point this case toward the demonic. However one case certainly doesn't represent enough of a data base to form any conclusion that PK activity is related to demons. In fact one case doesn't set any kind of pattern at all, it only speaks for that one case.

#42 AbbeyGal

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 06:50 PM

Personally, I would be content with having something repeatable and reliable, even if only a relative few could experience it or would believe it. Science has its dogmas, too, so I am not necessarily concerned with impressing them. I do not expect it to happen, at least in my lifetime, when it comes to paranormal research.


I'm with you on that.

The big issue I see with having something repeatable and reliable is that people are overlooking the human factor. It's a worthy goal, but how do they propose to get the ghosts to cooperate on a consistent basis? Just because someone is dead doesn't necessarily mean that they are willing to be at our beck and call to participate in experiments whenever we wish.

#43 OMPRDave

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:07 PM

If, indeed, ghosts are the spirits of dead people. We don't even have proof of that.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#44 Retro

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:36 PM

Personally, I would be content with having something repeatable and reliable, even if only a relative few could experience it or would believe it. Science has its dogmas, too, so I am not necessarily concerned with impressing them. I do not expect it to happen, at least in my lifetime, when it comes to paranormal research.


I'm with you on that.

The big issue I see with having something repeatable and reliable is that people are overlooking the human factor. It's a worthy goal, but how do they propose to get the ghosts to cooperate on a consistent basis? Just because someone is dead doesn't necessarily mean that they are willing to be at our beck and call to participate in experiments whenever we wish.



Well considering that people have been dying for hundreds of thousands of years (why don't we encounter ghosts of cavemen?) for every one not willing to communicate, there must be one that is willing. That is, assuming they are dead people.

If you think about it, many 'believers' think religion is silly, but all of the myths surrounding ghosts has everything to do with religion. Most believe these are spirits 'trapped' on earth. So then, if they are trapped, where are they supposed to have gone? Why do we only commnunicate with ghosts that really aren't that old, history-wise? And you hear very little stories about ghosts of animals (Christianity says animals have no souls.) Personally, I have witnessed ghosts of a couple of animals myself, but never an apparition of one.

#45 Puti

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 11:48 PM

This thread is driving me to think too hard!
What about this comment about cave people? Personally, I've always had this problem with time. Is time an illusion? Or is time really linear? It feels like I'm stepping forward from one day to the next getting older every minute. I had to consider that maybe reincarnation is real. haven't settled on that yet because of my problem with time. Some people say that it is all happening at once! I can't imagine that. So I have to say (today anyway) if time is linear, and we are all energy, and energy never dies but changes state, that cave people would have moved on through life time after lifetime and why would they bother appearing as a cave person when they've had so many lifetimes since then.

I have seen apparitions of animals that I've known. Always believed that they also have the same kind of spirits and souls as us. But what do I know? I've been called a heretic more than once.
"We grow neither better or worse as we get old, but more like ourselves."May L. BeckerCoffee.......the foundation of consciousness




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