Hypothetics, A 'what if' thread for thought provocation Options

[Retro]

I couldn't think of what place to post this, but I am interested in discussing hypothetical questions regarding the paranormal. I am interested in the opinion of skeptics or believers. Hopefully these discussions will help in the research of the paranormal.

I'll start things out:

Why is it so popular that a haunting has to be on land of an indian burial ground? Especially when it followed by not being haunted by Native Americans?

Why are ghosts never really very old? It seems that the ghosts reported only seem to go back to 'modern history.' Why is that? Don't cavemen have ghosts?

Feel free to expand on these, answer these, or post your own hypothetical questions for others to ponder.

[Mystic Hippy]

Why are ghosts never really very old?

I believe in reincarnation. I believe that ghosts show us an impression of their most recent incarnation. I think this is because their most recent incarnation would be their strongest memories of who they were. For example, it is much easier for us to recall events of our current lifetime than events of previous lives. Another example would be the impression you get when you meet a person. We often have a sensation of positive or negative.

[CaveRat]

1. I don't subscribe to the Indian burial ground theory, therefore I don't believe a haunting would be any more or less likely to occur on such land.

***

2. Since I don't believe the traditional explanation for ghosts (dead souls left behind) I have different reasons to explain the ages of ghosts Using the four explanatns I do believe may account for them I can give the following reasons. In each case the reason is different.

a. Residual Energy as a cause. Over time this energy would deplete or "run down" Consequently older ghosts would be less likely to appear.

b. Spirits returning with a message. Since I don't believe any are stuck here, rather they may be allowed to return for a specific purpose, it becomes a matter of relavance. Suppose a spirit was returning for the purpose of bringing some form of closure, it would be much more likely it would be a close relative rather than a 15th century spirit from 10 generations back.

c. Demons. These would be a matter of relavance as well. If a demon was attempting to gain your following it is more likely it could deceive you by appearing as someone more like you than someone dressed in caveman loincloths. Since these are ageless, they could appear as anything, but choose to be what they feel is most effective for their purpose.

d. Interdimensional beings. These likely would appear as anythng. they could account for the cloaked figures, etc. some report seeing. As with the demonic, we really can't give them an age. They coul be literally thousands of years old but appear as we see them. They don't attempt to conceal their appearance therefore the age can't be determined. They may hgave ben around since caveman days only we wouldn't know it by its appearance.

[Retro]

Great theories, Caverat!

Mystic Hippy, so you mean that ghosts can stick around for a certain length of time and then are reincarnated?

If we wanted to get biblical, we could probably add one more explanation:
I am not an expert on the end-times, but isn't it marked by a time when no more souls make it into heaven and therefore no more souls can return to life? Maybe someone more familiar with that can correct that a bit. If I am at least somewhat accurate, we could have been approaching the end times for some time now with souls left roaming the earth.

Here's some more, then:

Why don't we hear much from ghosts about what the afterlife is like? Is this really because they do not know that they are dead? If they didn't know they were dead, how would they know how to 'haunt' people?

[Nor'Easter]

Why is it so popular that a haunting has to be on land of an indian burial ground? Especially when it followed by not being haunted by Native Americans?

Of the many paranormal cases that have been documented, I'm not so sure that the overwhelming majority of them have been tied to Indian burial sites. I think that - as you put it - it's popular to connect a documented haunting to the fact of Indian burial proximity, if one can possibly (even tangentially) be made. You can blame the lazy creatives of Hollywood for that. It's easier to toss out a tried and true cliche, than to have to sweat over a new and innovative plot premise.

Why are ghosts never really very old? It seems that the ghosts reported only seem to go back to 'modern history.' Why is that? Don't cavemen have ghosts?

You have to keep in mind that whatever we've been able to actually document, in this realm, is likely only the very tip of the iceberg. Think of the millions of dinosaurs that weren't preserved and discovered as fossilized bones, and the truth of what actually may exist, beyond what bothers to make itself known to us, is pretty staggering.

There is also the aspect of a belligerent personality, and what that brings to the table when considering the "recipe" for a spectral manifestation. It is the personality of the individual that thwarts the natural process, and begins the potential for an "earthbound" spirit. The more primitive, and ignorantly trusting, the individual, the less likely that the individual will battle the "natural" urge to follow the path of least resistance once corporeal existance has ceased to be the driver. Ancient people had blind faith in their gods and demons. They also had faith in the premise that they were not the rulers of their own lives, so why should they have suddenly taken charge of their afterlives? Wouldn't happen, and in those very rare cases that one might, how long would it have lingered?

The human race has had their "ghost stories" and "spirit elders" since they opened their mouths to do something other than eat, drink and grunt. They'd have only lingered for the few that they knew, if they'd lingered at all. Humans lived in small pockets, isolated from other pockets in the early years. Not much reason to fight the natural flow of things for very long in that case.

As for my own wondering, who was it that decided that these are spirits? If water can be liquid, vapor or solid depending on temperature, then why can't the human psyche become different physical manifestations depending on external circumstance, without there being a complete paradeim shift of this sort? Why can't "spiritual" just be seen as a different kind of physical form? 300 years ago, viruses were "spiritual". Now they've become physical as we've become capable of seeing them with our technology. Why do we stubbornly hold onto the beliefs of people that knew less about their world that a 10 yr old knows about it nowdays?

Also, if ghosts have no actual human brain anymore, can they learn? That weeping widow who's been at the window for the last 400 years, is she actually a human in "spirit form" or is she something entirely different, even if she is capable of "intelligent" interaction?

[Retro]

Nor'Easter,

Wow, you brought alot of them to the table. I'll take a stab at a couple of them:

1. Who says they are spirits? Well, I think this is probably because many of the appearances have been people that the observer recognizes that has passed away or has been historically researchable. I suppose it could be true that they are not ALL spirits of dead people.

2. Ghost don't have a human brain. That one is a much more puzzling question, I think. We have scientifically proven that learning is a process of the brain. However, if one is to believe that our brain is really just a transceiver for our soul, maybe all we are really looking at are the data behind processed and transmitted. Very good question, though, and forces us to assume an answer not easily explainable or measureable.

What do you think?

[Mystic Hippy]

I believe this realm is like a big classroom. When we leave here...die...we review what we've learned in the most recent lifetime and plan on what concepts and objectives we would like to learn in the next lifetime. I believe we can chart the most prominent events of each coming lifetime. I just have difficulty accepting the idea of come here once then off into one other realm for eternity. That would be like going to the amusement park and riding just one ride.

[AnnieV]

Oooh, this is my kind of thread! I only have time to choose one of the posed questions for now, so I'm going to go with the ghostly brain question.

I believe the brain is for survival functions. There are parts of our brain that send signals to the corresponding parts of our bodies when we are hungry, tired, thirsty, scared, hot, cold, hurt, etc...all of these signals result in a physical response that acts as a sort of alarm system. If I put my hand in a boiling pot of water, my brain is going to register and signal that the water is HOT...I feel pain and pull my hand out. Survival instincts come from these processes as well, such as the well-known "fight or flight" response.

But...what part of our brain has ideas, what part is capable of thinking novel thoughts and creating things from our own imaginations? What constitutes creativity? Our consciousness is what does these things. It still baffles scientists and biologists as to what makes up the human consciousness. It certainly isn't a physical characteristic, but yet it is what separates human beings from everything non-living. After all, everything on Earth is made up of pretty much the same stuff, on a molecular level. I'm not that much different from dirt, in a scientific sense (no jokes, guys lol). Consciousness, or what some call a mind or soul, is entirely different from the brain...some might even propose that the brain is a product of the consciousness (but that's a whole new discussion in itself).

So, what happens to the consciousness upon death? I believe that if we ascribe to the typical definition of ghost as a deceased human being, it is their consciousness that survives the physical death, and that consciousness is entirely independent of the brain that houses it in this life.

Any other thoughts?

[Yosei]

Why are ghosts never really very old? It seems that the ghosts reported only seem to go back to 'modern history.' Why is that? Don't cavemen have ghosts?

Maybe they do, and that's why people report *seeing* Sasquatches and the like, but never find anything. Or not, but it's a thought.

[Retro]

Why are ghosts never really very old? It seems that the ghosts reported only seem to go back to 'modern history.' Why is that? Don't cavemen have ghosts?

Maybe they do, and that's why people report *seeing* Sasquatches and the like, but never find anything. Or not, but it's a thought.

That's just a little mind-blowing for me.

[Night Star]

What a great thread!

[OMPRDave]

After twenty years of reading all sorts of stories and reports, hearing all the ideas of what causes hauntings, and researching for myself, I have a couple of ideas that I like to use when trying to explain what I think is happening when people experience the paranormal.

1.)Continuation - it would seem that a person's intellect and personality are two key traits when people report having experienced and interacted with a haunting, and I honestly believe in the idea that these two traits somehow survive the death of the physical body. This energy form is suddenly not limited to the same rules of physics that you and I are, and therefore cannot comprehend what has happened to them, nor do they understand why they are impeded in their attempts to interact with their surroundings and even the passage of time is a linear sense.

2.)Environment determines manifestation - certain geophysical and environmental factors can and do influence the ability of these wayward personalities and their ability to interact in it. Whether it's a higher than normal fluctuation in the Earth's own magnetic field altering the environment in such a way that it naturally interferes with our laws of physics or some yet undiscovered outside influences between the dimensional barriers, something is happening that optimizes the environment in such a way that we are able to perceive these personalities, and vice versa, in any myriad of ways.

By sticking to these ideas, I can focus on the environment in an area where activity is reported and start laying a foundation for the way I research them in the future.

This post has been edited by OMPRDave: Feb 2 2009, 05:19 PM

[Retro]

Dave, those are great points. I think I have been wanting to approach this 'top-down' rather than 'bottom-up." I was more interested in directly communicating with a ghost and less interested in the the environment surrounding it. But, since we don't "really" know who ghosts communicate, the answer lies in gathering as much environmental data as possible.


This also increases the validity of taking a psychic along with you. Since you are focusing on the environment itself, and not the ghost, it would help to have a psychic with you that can say "There is someone present in THIS room." And then you can compare the data with other rooms.

[OMPRDave]

Agreed...plus we get to study the psychics while we're at it

[Moregan]

Why are ghosts never really very old? It seems that the ghosts reported only seem to go back to 'modern history.' Why is that? Don't cavemen have ghosts?

I was talking to a member of my team about this topic and he's got some interesting ideas:

1. the "evolution of the human soul": maybe the immortality of the soul didn't exist from the beginning, but evolved after some time (I hope my explanation is understandable).

2. Most people are probably a bit embarrased when they have to tell someone about their ghostly encounter. And it's even more difficult to talk about the sighting of a "Homo habilis" ghost...

3. If it's residual, then the explanation could be that the energy which caused the residual haunting is only active for a certain period of time, like a battery.

4. If you believe in reincarnation, then maybe ghosts are souls waiting to be reborn...

I think that theory Nr. 2 is quite convincing.

There are quite a few stories about Roman ghosts by the way.