Jump to content


Click Here To Visit Our Sponsor


Photo

All Paranormal Phenomena Is A Hoax


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#31 CaveRat2

CaveRat2

    Village Elder

  • Town Council
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayette County, Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Serious Research and separating the truth from the hype in the paranormal field today.

Posted 31 July 2009 - 05:02 PM

~Caverat, I'm not speaking for others but I believe that those who speak to spirits have been dragged through the mud for centuries that now, they have this huge wall built up. It's not that don't want to prove their abilities, it's just the approach from others that has an influence on their answer to you and others taht look for that god-all-mighty proof. No disrespect towards you what so ever as you aren't and won't be the first to seek answers. I think that no matter what proof a person with abilities has, there will always be holes in it for a skeptic to tear to shreds. It's the same with your "instruments"...I'm sure there are ways that they work great most of the time, but then there's going to be one small "hiccup" in the way they perform and there ya go...out in the garbage it goes.
**This is just my own opinion***


I don't take offense at any of yours or anyone else's comments. This is a discussion forum with differing opinions.

That said I agree, my instruments may at times "hiccup". That is why we test and calibrate them. then test them some more. And beat them around and retest. To minimize the possibility of errors.

It is also why the psychic should be willing to be tested. And if the results come out looking flawed or something they don't agree with, retested. And tested again.

Because the more we test the more likely we are to get to the truth. For a psychic to take the stand that they don't have to prove anything is akin to taking one flawed reading on one instrument and claiming it proves everything. Neither stand is correct and both leave open much room for disagreement.

#32 PHANTOM MONK

PHANTOM MONK

    Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 199 posts
  • Interests:Trying not to step on the land mines that others have planted in front of me. No sense saying more, as this will be removed anyway.

Posted 31 July 2009 - 07:39 PM

Wish it was a hoax. It would make explaaining what goes on in the house all the easier to explain. Maybe if I denied it, it would go away but if they are a hoax, they aren't there anyway to bother me. :wow:

#33 Shawn333

Shawn333

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 684 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 02 August 2009 - 07:17 AM

"All paranormal phenomena," covers a LOT more than just psychics and people claiming supernatural abilities. If you're only calling out one small part of paranormal phenomena maybe you should have titled the thread "all psychics are a hoax." By saying "all" of anything, you usually make a false statement. Some paranormal phenomena could have very scientific, logical explanations that aren't supernatural. That's not the same thing as being a "hoax."

Edited by Shawn333, 02 August 2009 - 07:17 AM.


#34 OMPRDave

OMPRDave

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 563 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upton, Massachusetts
  • Interests:Family, fishing, hunting, camping, history, photography, poetry/writing, and last but not least, paranormal investigation

Posted 02 August 2009 - 12:10 PM

This thread lost me a while back...a hoax is something intended to deceive or deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage. In the case of anything paranormal you have to assume some are hoaxes. it's just human nature to try and pull one over on others at times. But by saying all phenomena is a hoax doesn't make any sense.

Consider all the factors of why somebody experiences something - they are hallucinating, they fell victim to hysteria, or they actually experienced something they can't readily explain. You can add any other description here, but it doesn't make the experience any less real to the observer.

Just my two cents on topic.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#35 Georgia

Georgia

    Member

  • New Member
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 02 August 2009 - 11:06 PM

The reason I'm making this post is to show everyone that if you believe in anything supernatural, then you can be almost certain that you're deluded.

If anyone can convince me of any supernatural ability, however slight, I will not only give them $1000USD, but I will also promote them in a way they never imagined. If you fail however, which I know everyone will, then I reserve the right to publish our full conversation here, or anywhere else I choose, for everyone to see.


I do not recall, in any definition of "scientific method" terms such as: the investigator has already given their conclusion prior to any invesitgation; the investigator has no set control, parameters or method of validation beyond his/her personal beliefs; the investigators entire method of validation is left to "my word against theirs"; the invesitgator has his/her personal money to be lost should their theory be proven inaccurate; the investigator has not done their research to examine what other investigations that know what true scientic method is have done (ie - several major universities - and yes they are published beyond yahoo messenger).

Science, I respect. Skepticism, I respect. Delusional ramblings, not so much.

#36 PHANTOM MONK

PHANTOM MONK

    Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 199 posts
  • Interests:Trying not to step on the land mines that others have planted in front of me. No sense saying more, as this will be removed anyway.

Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:15 PM

I gotta say that is impressive but you shouldn't give away what you can do it and how you do it. :)

#37 midwestparanormal

midwestparanormal

    Junior Villager

  • New Member
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 06:35 PM

I always love it when people start threads like these and then vanish!

#38 OMPRDave

OMPRDave

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 563 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upton, Massachusetts
  • Interests:Family, fishing, hunting, camping, history, photography, poetry/writing, and last but not least, paranormal investigation

Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:03 PM

Like Kaiser Soze....poof!
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#39 Laurie Ann

Laurie Ann

    Your imagination IS running off with you!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,025 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:LaPorte, Indiana
  • Interests:I love to do yard work, re-arrange my home constantly, draw and get tattoos that have significant meaning to me, garage sales/yard sales fanatic. My home is haunted by I believe 2 spirits, so I'm never alone when everyone is asleep! I'm trying to label the gifts I have, although I try to keep them a secret from my husband..he wouldn't understand. My 20 year old is now living on his own and does so great! My 6 year old is a little me, and the baby will be 5 December. He's about 8-12 months behind, but that smile...that beautiful smile.

Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:45 PM

Like Kaiser Soze....poof!



~Thats one of my favorite movies!!
~Women are angels...and when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly...on a broomstick. We're flexible like that.~

#40 canuck

canuck

    Senior Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 343 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:39 PM

[quote name='Georgia' post='525480' date='Aug 3 2009, 12:06 AM'][/quote]
I do not recall, in any definition of "scientific method" terms such as: the investigator has already given their conclusion prior to any invesitgation; the investigator has no set control, parameters or method of validation beyond his/her personal beliefs; the investigators entire method of validation is left to "my word against theirs"; the invesitgator has his/her personal money to be lost should their theory be proven inaccurate; the investigator has not done their research to examine what other investigations that know what true scientic method is have done (ie - several major universities - and yes they are published beyond yahoo messenger).

Science, I respect. Skepticism, I respect. Delusional ramblings, not so much.
[quote/]

In the interests of stirring the pot and livening up the discussion, let me draw attention to three theories that have gone through the whole “scientific method”; and despite this, have become “conventional wisdom”.

Despite the overwhelming evidence that contradicts both the conclusions drawn, and the resulting conventional wisdom, the view that has prevailed is that which defends the livelihoods of its proponents, as opposed to the empirical science.

The actual results generated by the “scientific method” were distorted, misinterpreted, cherry picked, misrepresented, falsified and fraudulently presented in order to push the agenda of vested interests.

In other words, the “scientific method” stands no chance in the face of politics and vested interests.

Here are three current theories, to illustrate the point:

1. The diet/cholesterol/fat/atherosclerosis/heart disease theory.
Theory based on fraud and misrepresentation.
Actual result: a possible Nobel Prize for the prime proponent.
2. Darwinian theory of evolution of the species.
Theory conclusively blown out of the water by the Genome Study in 2001.
Actual result: zillions of dollars of research grants still being awarded to Darwinians.
3. The climatic effects of human generated CO2.
Theory definitively disproved by atmospheric physics, thermal physics and historical data.
Actual result: failing careers revitalised and glory gained through politically correct BS.

#41 earth_spirit

earth_spirit

    Village Elder

  • Town Council
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,909 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sandpoint, ID

Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:10 PM

Science, I respect. Skepticism, I respect. Delusional ramblings, not so much.

I always love it when people start threads like these and then vanish!

You may have also noticed that hippityhoohaa, the original poster, hasn't been actively logged in since the middle of June.

Edited by earth_spirit, 04 August 2009 - 12:08 AM.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you do not expect to sit -- Nelson Henderson

Not A Ghost Of A Chance -- The Story Of My Three Years At The Imperial Casino Hotel <-- Click Here For My Personal Website

#42 Axman

Axman

    Chainsaws are better......

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kingman, AZ
  • Interests:Ghost hunting of course! Motorcycles is a big interest of mine. I also am a guitar player (hence my username) but I haven't practiced much over the last year or two. I also enjoy spending time with my wife and family when possible.

Posted 06 August 2009 - 06:36 PM

Likely just a troll. Dipped his lure into the lake and got more fish than he cares to eat I suspect.
Ah. Well... I attended Juilliard... I'm a graduate of the Harvard business school. I travel quite extensively. I lived through the Black Plague and had a pretty good time during that. I've seen the EXORCIST ABOUT A HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN TIMES, AND IT KEEPS GETTING FUNNIER EVERY SINGLE TIME I SEE IT... NOT TO MENTION THE FACT THAT YOU'RE TALKING TO A DEAD GUY... NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK? You think I'm qualified? --BeetlejuiceI'm the ghost with the most, babe.--BeetlejuiceWe've come for your daughter Chuck--Beetlejuice

#43 Laurie Ann

Laurie Ann

    Your imagination IS running off with you!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,025 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:LaPorte, Indiana
  • Interests:I love to do yard work, re-arrange my home constantly, draw and get tattoos that have significant meaning to me, garage sales/yard sales fanatic. My home is haunted by I believe 2 spirits, so I'm never alone when everyone is asleep! I'm trying to label the gifts I have, although I try to keep them a secret from my husband..he wouldn't understand. My 20 year old is now living on his own and does so great! My 6 year old is a little me, and the baby will be 5 December. He's about 8-12 months behind, but that smile...that beautiful smile.

Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:29 AM

Likely just a troll. Dipped his lure into the lake and got more fish than he cares to eat I suspect.



lol....yep, sounds about right.
~Women are angels...and when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly...on a broomstick. We're flexible like that.~

#44 duncan36

duncan36

    Junior Villager

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts

Posted 07 August 2009 - 10:20 PM

I can conduct the illusion of psychic abilities, clairvoyance, mediumship etc. From reading a lot of posts on these forums I can see anyone who believes in ghosts has a gross misunderstanding or misapplication of the scientific method. But of course your response will be "ohh no it's you who isn't open minded".

That is why I invite absolutely anyone here, or anywhere else (even if you're just reading this forum and are not registered), who claims to possess any supernatural power (whether you think you're a psychic, can talk to the dead, or do anything else) to add me to Yahoo Messenger on hippityhoohaa@y7mail.com and prove it to me. Tell me things about myself that a stranger couldn't possibly know, and that are statistically unlikely to be random.

Through text, I ask you to demonstrate to me even the slightest thing that I, as a skeptic, would not be able to explain normally. Don't attempt anything vague on me, because I probably know cold reading better than you do. The reason I'm making this post is to show everyone that if you believe in anything supernatural, then you can be almost certain that you're deluded.

If anyone can convince me of any supernatural ability, however slight, I will not only give them $1000USD, but I will also promote them in a way they never imagined. If you fail however, which I know everyone will, then I reserve the right to publish our full conversation here, or anywhere else I choose, for everyone to see.

I'm trying to compile a lists of fakes, or people who genuinely believe they have paranormal abilities but obviously suffer from a mental illness, so that I can put together a book demonstrating to vulnerable minds that there is indeed no such thing as the supernatural.

So go ahead, add me on hippityhoohaa@y7mail.com if you think you're a psychic, medium, or anything else that you think you can prove. Be reminded however that I reserve the right to publish our full conversation anywhere I please. And please don't try any fraudulent techniques or ask me to provide you any detailed information about myself, as I'm probably a better trickster than you are and don't fall for such things. People who play upon the vulnerable with their charlatanism sicken me.

I dare anyone to step up to this challenge. If no one does, then it just goes to show what a hoax any psychics here are when confronted by someone who knows their tricks.


Ok first you will agree that people can be insane correct? There are people out there who truly believe they see things that you cannot see. Any psychiatrist will tell you that these people honestly believe they see things that appear real to them that you cannot see.
If people can be insane its not a stretch of the imagination to believe places can be insane. That a place can literally be sick. Look at people like Charles Manson. Obviously insane, his insanity was so strong it overwhelmed the better judgement of previously normal people and they lost their minds also. His insanity infected others with his delusions to the point they would murder people for some bizarre delusion.
Thats what haunted places are from a rational perspective. The insane energy of these places overwhelm people who go there and they experience phenomena that they normally dont see.

The reason theres no definitive smoking gun of the supernatural is that this insane energy would have to overwhelm all of humanity. Which is basically impossible.
If there was 100% proof of the supernatural all of humanity would want to see it.

Thats why the supernatural always lurks in the shadows, with enough doubt for people to write it off.

#45 stevenedel

stevenedel

    Junior Villager

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 12 September 2009 - 05:20 PM

In the interests of stirring the pot and livening up the discussion, let me draw attention to three theories that have gone through the whole “scientific method”; and despite this, have become “conventional wisdom”.

Despite the overwhelming evidence that contradicts both the conclusions drawn, and the resulting conventional wisdom, the view that has prevailed is that which defends the livelihoods of its proponents, as opposed to the empirical science.

The actual results generated by the “scientific method” were distorted, misinterpreted, cherry picked, misrepresented, falsified and fraudulently presented in order to push the agenda of vested interests.

In other words, the “scientific method” stands no chance in the face of politics and vested interests.

Here are three current theories, to illustrate the point:

1. The diet/cholesterol/fat/atherosclerosis/heart disease theory.
Theory based on fraud and misrepresentation.
Actual result: a possible Nobel Prize for the prime proponent.
2. Darwinian theory of evolution of the species.
Theory conclusively blown out of the water by the Genome Study in 2001.
Actual result: zillions of dollars of research grants still being awarded to Darwinians.
3. The climatic effects of human generated CO2.
Theory definitively disproved by atmospheric physics, thermal physics and historical data.
Actual result: failing careers revitalised and glory gained through politically correct BS.


It is such a comfort, the too few times I pop in here, to find that Canuck is still the same. This particular post I found interesting: to prove the supposed bias and unreliability of scientific findings, Canuck quotes other scientific findings, which, following his own line of reasoning, would be equally biased and unreliable.

It is always nice to have a conspiracy theory at hand to get rid of findings that you don't like, but to pretend that all scientists are just a bunch of money-grabbing impostors who are happily doctoring their data is of course silly, as well as an insult to the many dedicated scientists who work hard to get a clearer view of the facts. Of course science isn't perfect, of course there are those who abuse it, but it has brought us heaps of understanding and has improved our lives in innumerable ways. Imagine where we would be without it.

If ever there is to be convincing evidence of ghosts, psychic abilities or any other paranormal phenomenon, there is no other way to provide it than through the scientific method. These boards are full of claims that are quite easy to test through fairly simple yet scientifically sound procedures. Just one example: it strikes me that EVP recordings are usually presented with the instruction to listen for a voice saying this or that; mostly, we only get to hear the fragment containing the supposed voice. With the suggestion firmly in place, most people will indeed hear the "help me" or "get out of here" or whatever other desperate message the 'other side' has supposedly been sending. This happens for the same reason we see human faces in anything from a wrinkled tablecloth to the moon: humans are pattern-seekers.

The evidence would be a lot more convincing if, say, 100 randomly chosen subjects were presented with an extended audiofragment that at some point contains the supposed EVP. They should get no more instruction than to listen closely for anything remarkable or recognizable they may hear, and if they do so, to write down what they are hearing and at what point of the recording. I would be impressed if even just 15 or 20 of these 100 unprimed subjects would note down the same message at the same point in time on the tape. I also think it is very unlikely this would happen with any of the EVPs I ever heard. And mind you, while it would be impressive, because it suggests that something non-random is there, it would still not in any way prove that the message that was heard came from a ghost. The fact that a message is heard doesn't in itself tell us anything about its source, and the fact that we can't readily explain its presence doesn't in any way lead to the conclusion that it must 'therefore' be supernatural.

Jumping to conclusions, a lack of criticism in determining what your evidence is actually telling you and what is your own interpretation or wishful thinking is the most common error I encounter among paranormal believers. As is the kind of reasoning I find in Duncan's post: "people can be insane, so places can be insane too". How is that? People have minds that can malfunction; a house is made of bricks, wood and mortar, it has no consciousness, no way of storing memories or even of experiencing what is going on inside it. I find it a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that places can be insane. Thousands of questions need to be answered before I can understand how that would be possible.

So while I may not be overly charmed by the tone of the initial post in this thread, I quite understand the challenge it poses. Paranormal believers are constantly saying that the evidence is all over the place, but the fact is it isn't. Not, in any case, evidence that would meet even the mildest scientific standards. And believe me, I've looked.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users