Jump to content


Click Here To Visit Our Sponsor


Photo

Not another demon thread!!!??


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1 greg_dragonlvr

greg_dragonlvr

    Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western Illinois
  • Interests:Camping, wilderness adventures, ancient engineering, modern physics and electronics, martial arts and native cultures.

Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:25 AM

Did a quick perusal of the forums here and found over 10 pages of topics that contain something about demons, the earliest from Pearl Harbor Day in 2003.

Took a look at 3 or 4 concordances, the many versions of bibles, and my catechism books that I have stashed around here and cannot find the term demon used in any of the original versions of Old or New Testaments. There are tempters that hang out with God and place bets with him. There is a serpent, who has no other title, and some unclean spirits that the Christ deals with. There are also some references to dieties worshiped by the Isrealite's enemies and some very vague items that could be anything from wild animals to infectious diseases. Nope, no demons.

So, what do ppl here know that the authors of the Bible didn't? This is not to say that christian religions do not have their demonic lore and myth. Local pagan gods got sucked up by early christians to become evil. And the early church fathers as well as Jewish scholars started in the second century AD to absorb the Babylonian and Assyrian demonic pantheon whole sale.

So aside from some religous plagerism, some mislabeled pagan gods and a tempter or two, who are all these guys and where the Hell are they coming from? How do you tell a demon from a psychotic episode, a sociopathic spook or a self induced case of hysteria?

Are there malicious spirits about? Certainly, just as there are malicious ppl still with us. It is a great big universe and there could be some 'negative' entities that drift by from time to time. But until I see some valid ID from one of these critters, they will remain myth and imagination along with their angelic cousins.

Waiting to be educated....

Greg

Can't Fall Off the Floor


#2 leslie_dragonlvr

leslie_dragonlvr

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,397 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Western Illinois
  • Interests:Enjoying life, again.<br />Anything paranormal, mostly spiritography and spirit communication.<br />The wilderness, traveling, historical places and a beach.<br />All that involves my heart and soul.

Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:45 PM

Ok, sorry to follow you love, but had to post on this too!

In all my days doing what I do as a psychic medium, there has never been a single "demon" in all my travels. I have to agree, that this is a religious control thing and has evolved into so much scary crap for people, that they tend to let it take over. Just like anything else our minds can conjure up if given the right tool to do so.

Spirits of those who had/have mental issues, example Manson, I would worry about that dude in the afterlife. He had such control over people and a severe mental case in his own right. This is where we get the spirits that people think are evil or demonic. They know how to use and abuse the afterlife and that energy to harm or severly scare people. Its nothing more and can be handled if you know how. Some take a long time or are just never able to control but can be delt with. I have 2 such spirits in my home and area. We get along just fine now for the past 25 years. There are days tho that they may fly off a bit, but don't feed them anything to go farther.

Ok thats my 2 cents for now.
Les
Greg - You and no other - Forever and Always! Gv ge yu!

#3 CaveRat2

CaveRat2

    Village Elder

  • Town Council
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,567 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayette County, Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Serious Research and separating the truth from the hype in the paranormal field today.

Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:28 PM

While the terminology may differ among various translations, the story of Christ casting the demons from the possessed located in Mathew 8 28 - 34 is clearly a reference to an entity not of this world. The American Standard version even uses the word "demon" in describing them as does the NIV. The King James version calls them "devils". There are multiple other references as well to demons in the bible.

You can find numerous references by going to the Bible Garteway.com and doing a search on the word "demon". You may have to alternately use the term "devils" as this is what demons were refered to in the past. The term is interchangble, both refer to servants of satan.

#4 leslie_dragonlvr

leslie_dragonlvr

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,397 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Western Illinois
  • Interests:Enjoying life, again.<br />Anything paranormal, mostly spiritography and spirit communication.<br />The wilderness, traveling, historical places and a beach.<br />All that involves my heart and soul.

Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:07 PM

Ok, sorry to follow you love, but had to post on this too!

In all my days doing what I do as a psychic medium, there has never been a single "demon" in all my travels. I have to agree, that this is a religious control thing and has evolved into so much scary crap for people, that they tend to let it take over. Just like anything else our minds can conjure up if given the right tool to do so.

Spirits of those who had/have mental issues, example Manson, I would worry about that dude in the afterlife. He had such control over people and a severe mental case in his own right. This is where we get the spirits that people think are evil or demonic. They know how to use and abuse the afterlife and that energy to harm or severly scare people. Its nothing more and can be handled if you know how. Some take a long time or are just never able to control but can be delt with. I have 2 such spirits in my home and area. We get along just fine now for the past 25 years. There are days tho that they may fly off a bit, but don't feed them anything to go farther.

Ok thats my 2 cents for now.
Les



I should refer to Charlie Manson, not just Manson....sorry.
Greg - You and no other - Forever and Always! Gv ge yu!

#5 aloha_spirit

aloha_spirit

    I'm 100% Poi Dog!

  • Town Council
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,534 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Utah County, Utah, USA
  • Interests:Computer Programming, Books, Movies, Nature, Religion.

Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:58 PM

From Modern Language Association (MLA):
"demon." Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper, Historian. 31 Aug. 2009. (Dictionary.com http://dictionary.re...om/browse/demon).

demon
1387, from L. dæmon "spirit," from Gk. daimon (gen. daimonos) "lesser god, guiding spirit, tutelary deity," (sometimes including souls of the dead), used (with daimonion) in Christian Gk. translations and Vulgate for "god of the heathen" and "unclean spirit." Jewish authors earlier had employed the Gk. word in this sense, using it to render shedim "lords, idols" in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii.31 has daimones, translated as deofol in O.E., feend or deuil in M.E. The original mythological sense is sometimes written dæmon for purposes of distinction. The Demon of Socrates (1387) was a daimonion, a "divine principle or inward oracle." His accusers, and later the Church Fathers, however, represented this otherwise. The Demon Star (1895) is Beta Persei (in Ar. Algol "the Demon") so called because it visibly varies in brightness every three days. Fem. form demoness first attested 1638. Demonic is from 1662; demonize is from 1821.


Demon took on an evil connotation when the Christian Church called daimons (deities of the heathen) "evil".

I didn't lose my mind - I have it backed up on a disk ... somewhere


#6 leslie_dragonlvr

leslie_dragonlvr

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,397 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Western Illinois
  • Interests:Enjoying life, again.<br />Anything paranormal, mostly spiritography and spirit communication.<br />The wilderness, traveling, historical places and a beach.<br />All that involves my heart and soul.

Posted 01 September 2009 - 11:52 AM

There are many different interpetations of "demon" yes, but what I am more after here is what proof is there that they truly exsist? There has been none in the physical form for anyone to really see or feel. So how can anyone say they are amongst us? Like I said I have been doing this a long time, many life times to be a bit clearer, and never have I seen anything to back this up except a spirit with a mental illness of some sort. The movies make such a dramatic show of this, that folks truly feel its real. Things you can do with a movie camera and computers...well check out what the mind can do too.

I do not believe in things that people make up or use to control people. Just my opinion...I have issues with people controling others.....long story...


Les
Greg - You and no other - Forever and Always! Gv ge yu!

#7 Laurie Ann

Laurie Ann

    Your imagination IS running off with you!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,025 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:LaPorte, Indiana
  • Interests:I love to do yard work, re-arrange my home constantly, draw and get tattoos that have significant meaning to me, garage sales/yard sales fanatic. My home is haunted by I believe 2 spirits, so I'm never alone when everyone is asleep! I'm trying to label the gifts I have, although I try to keep them a secret from my husband..he wouldn't understand. My 20 year old is now living on his own and does so great! My 6 year old is a little me, and the baby will be 5 December. He's about 8-12 months behind, but that smile...that beautiful smile.

Posted 01 September 2009 - 12:05 PM

~Unlike what Hollywood portrays as what a "demon" should look/act like (because I, for one, believe tv/movies are for pure entertainment...even those reenacted from testimonies of actual happenings), I have to put the true exhistance of "demons" up there with the true exhistance of "God". I can't see or feel both, so how do I know they really exhist???

Many out there will say there has to be a God because of all the miracles that happen out there...that God is within us...that God is in charge of all. Then the same goes true for demons. I always believed that demons were to lucifer like angels are to God. Demons are those who kill children, do unspeakable acts to animals & humans. I don't know, it's very hard to explain the way I feel about this subject. Try as I may, it would never come out the way I mean it & leave many just shaking their heads.

I think demons are real...just can't prove it unless you want to go towards the proof of the nasty, heartless criminals out there. I also think that things great that happen (out of our control) is a sign of a higher power. God? I dunno...but it's happened/happening because of someone or something greater. See? Told you it's hard for me to put it down so someone else could understand. I've seen heaven in the earthly form (giving birth to beautiful children) and I've seen hell in the earthly form (being terribly unhappy & having no way out). Again...hard to explain. Out of all these words, I hope it makes some kind of sense.
~Women are angels...and when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly...on a broomstick. We're flexible like that.~

#8 Vampchick21

Vampchick21

    Looks Irish, loves Italian food, lives in Canada....must be lost

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,995 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:knitting, crocheting, writing, cats, paranormal phenomena, cryptzoology, Monty Python

Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:12 PM

There are many different interpetations of "demon" yes, but what I am more after here is what proof is there that they truly exsist? There has been none in the physical form for anyone to really see or feel. So how can anyone say they are amongst us? Like I said I have been doing this a long time, many life times to be a bit clearer, and never have I seen anything to back this up except a spirit with a mental illness of some sort. The movies make such a dramatic show of this, that folks truly feel its real. Things you can do with a movie camera and computers...well check out what the mind can do too.

I do not believe in things that people make up or use to control people. Just my opinion...I have issues with people controling others.....long story...


Les



you can say the same thing about ghosts really. :wow:

Krafted with luv

by monsters


#9 CaveRat2

CaveRat2

    Village Elder

  • Town Council
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,567 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayette County, Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Serious Research and separating the truth from the hype in the paranormal field today.

Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:12 PM

~Unlike what Hollywood portrays as what a "demon" should look/act like (because I, for one, believe tv/movies are for pure entertainment...even those reenacted from testimonies of actual happenings), I have to put the true exhistance of "demons" up there with the true exhistance of "God". I can't see or feel both, so how do I know they really exhist???

Many out there will say there has to be a God because of all the miracles that happen out there...that God is within us...that God is in charge of all. Then the same goes true for demons. I always believed that demons were to lucifer like angels are to God. Demons are those who kill children, do unspeakable acts to animals & humans. I don't know, it's very hard to explain the way I feel about this subject. Try as I may, it would never come out the way I mean it & leave many just shaking their heads.

I think demons are real...just can't prove it unless you want to go towards the proof of the nasty, heartless criminals out there. I also think that things great that happen (out of our control) is a sign of a higher power. God? I dunno...but it's happened/happening because of someone or something greater. See? Told you it's hard for me to put it down so someone else could understand. I've seen heaven in the earthly form (giving birth to beautiful children) and I've seen hell in the earthly form (being terribly unhappy & having no way out). Again...hard to explain. Out of all these words, I hope it makes some kind of sense.


You have hit on the problem most have regarding demons. People expect them to do as you said, "kill children, do unspeakable acts to animals & humans." However a demon's sole purpose id to work as an agent of satan and separate man from God. They do this by deception, lies, deceit, anything they feel would be effective. To do this by spinning heads and green vomit would be very ineffective and is not something one expects of a demon, except in the movies and on TV. Thus demons are free to work their deceit with little interference because they have actually taken advantage of what people expect over what is really going on.

They are the equivalent of angels, in fact are fallen angels expelled from heaven along with satan. They have comparable powers to angels except their motives are against God while angels support God. As far as solid proof you won't likely find any. a demon is not going to tip its hand by doing something to reveal its presence. That would be counter productive to its purpose. So forget the spinning heads and other evil manefestations some attribute to a demon, that is likely something else besides a demon. They are much to clever to do something that obvious.

#10 greg_dragonlvr

greg_dragonlvr

    Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western Illinois
  • Interests:Camping, wilderness adventures, ancient engineering, modern physics and electronics, martial arts and native cultures.

Posted 03 September 2009 - 03:36 PM

As I said in the start, it is a great big universe. And also, I was looking at the bibles that are not based on 3d or 4th generation translations from the original texts.

King James Version has for Mk 5:
5:11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

The Jerusalem Bible has for Mk 5:
11 Now on the mountainside there was a great herd of pigs feeding,
12 and the unclean spirits begged him, 'Send us to the pigs, let us go into them.'

In each of the translations there is a spot where the word demon/devil is used. A few chapters back you find it again, directly associated with a disease--an epileptic demon. One can draw a conclusion as to what they concidered a demon.

Checking the indexes on devil/demon yields less and less referals to the word as one goes back from the KJ version. What remains in the NT is a handful from Mark, reported to be from North Africa, and in Luke, traditionally from Greece, neither place concidered a Arimaic or Jewish cultural hub.

And these can be associated with some mental/physical affliction or an admonishment from the Christ not to be like or follow in the behaviour of a devil, a turn of phrase even athiests use today.

My thanks to Aloha for doing some of my homework. The info he found pretty much covers the references found in the Old Testament to demons and devils. Gog and Magog, Beelzebub, etc. are names for gods of the non-Jewish ppl surrounding Isreal that turned into Demons in the lists of the Demonic

Can't Fall Off the Floor


#11 greg_dragonlvr

greg_dragonlvr

    Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western Illinois
  • Interests:Camping, wilderness adventures, ancient engineering, modern physics and electronics, martial arts and native cultures.

Posted 05 September 2009 - 08:22 AM

We seemed to have drifted far from the original point I was attemting to make. That we had a good discussion about ppls beliefs was interesting in itself. I was reacting to the constant claims of some poor souls that they are plagued with demons and devils.

I have no inside track to the Almighty, and all I can do is seek what is written from the ppl who should know. I tend to ignore all the conjecture following Him, as it is just as much guess work as my meanderings.

But this continuous stream of demonic infestations and interferences, aided and abbetted by ppl who seem to have something to gain by this silliness, is doing much more harm than good. Folks who should have had merely a rowdy haunt who's presence would have been kind of fun, suddenly find themselves in a battle that scares them stoopid and does nothing but confuse and anger all involved, living and dead.

If there are supernatural critters that can be called devils, they are so rare as to be non-extistant. And that others somehow cash in on this ignorance/lack of knowledge is appauling and disgraceful. And to aid and abet this fear in avoiding the risk of counterdicting them is worse.

Can't Fall Off the Floor


#12 Shawn333

Shawn333

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 685 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 05 September 2009 - 10:37 PM

Local pagan gods got sucked up by early christians to become evil. And the early church fathers as well as Jewish scholars started in the second century AD to absorb the Babylonian and Assyrian demonic pantheon whole sale.

I made this exact same point in a post before when the discussion was on a specific named demon. I swear it was almost word for word what you just said. It just seemed to anger a few posters who thought of themselves as demon experts. That process started way before the 2nd century.

So aside from some religous plagerism, some mislabeled pagan gods and a tempter or two, who are all these guys and where the Hell are they coming from? How do you tell a demon from a psychotic episode, a sociopathic spook or a self induced case of hysteria?

Are there malicious spirits about? Certainly, just as there are malicious ppl still with us. It is a

Greg

I've been saying that for years too....but usually aimed at the crowd that seems to think all spirits are happy, helpful, and benign. Not all people are that way, some are even insane, so if ghosts are human spirits, some will simply be "evil," nasty things. How do you tell what is what? No one really can with 100% accuracy. I DO believe in at least the possibility of non-human spirits or negative energies and the ones that are bad could rightfully be called demons. It's not solely a Christian concept that had it's beginnings in 1st century Judaism's need to "demonize" local pagan gods and early Christianity's carrying on the same process. Evil spirits, deities, or demons predates Christianity and I've had personal experiences with some nasty spirits so I don't rule them out. But like you said, it very well could be human spirits. Good post Greg.

#13 Shawn333

Shawn333

    Village Elder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 685 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 05 September 2009 - 11:13 PM

There are many different interpetations of "demon" yes, but what I am more after here is what proof is there that they truly exsist? There has been none in the physical form for anyone to really see or feel. So how can anyone say they are amongst us? Like I said I have been doing this a long time, many life times to be a bit clearer, and never have I seen anything to back this up except a spirit with a mental illness of some sort. The movies make such a dramatic show of this, that folks truly feel its real. Things you can do with a movie camera and computers...well check out what the mind can do too.

I do not believe in things that people make up or use to control people. Just my opinion...I have issues with people controling others.....long story...


Les


You make good points but I have to respectfully disagree somewhat. First, I leave the possibility open to their existence because I don't assume all "ghosts" or spirits are human. I try not to make too many assumptions about the paranormal, period, no matter how much I think I know! Even if a person has a lot of experience with one aspect of the paranormal it hardly means they know everything there is to know. No one has all of the answers. There isn't any proof like you described for the things you believe either, except for your personal experiences that prove the things you believe to YOU and physical proof that die hard skeptics will always write off. Well, other people have had experiences that you have not. They believe them to be demons. You and Greg are right in saying that they could very well be human spirits that are insane or whatever. You're using a kind of reverse anecdotal evidence argument that you've never dealt with one so they can't be real. That means nothing. You DO believe in life after death and spirits. A lot of people could say that they've never dealt with those therefore they don't exist. A lot of people DO say that...it doesn't make them right.

Your point about control I disagree with too from a logical standpoint. Just because people use something to control others doesn't mean that thing doesn't exist. I don't know who first mentioned or made up demons. No one does because that knowledge has been lost in time. It wasn't Christians and Jews, they were only using a concept that was already there to make derogatory remarks about pagan gods. A lot of religions use them to control people. A lot of religions use God to control people, but I don't think that means there is no god. A LOT of psychics use their abilities to control people and keep them paying money too. I don't think that logically rules out psychic phenomena. (That's not meant as a criticism of psychics getting payed for their services, just the ones who take advantage of people. Fake or legit psychics can do that.) I'm just saying...you can't rule things out as existing just because of your particular views about how religions act, control people, or use certain concepts. We don't know who made up demons or why, but they're all over the place in every ancient culture and many religions and they predate all modern mainstream beliefs. The concept has changed and evolved too. People always write things off because they either assume it was made up to control people or that people a long time ago were hopelessly stupid neanderthals. They didn't understand things and were frightened of the sun so they made stuff up to explain things. Sure, there's some truth to that. But I always suspect that there might be a grain of truth and some real thing that mythologies and superstitions grew out of.

And I also can't rule out my own personal experiences and the anecdotal stories of thousands of people and just throw the concept away because religions use it to frighten people or whatever. I totally understand and respect your point of view, but this is just where I'm coming from and why I leave the possibility open. I may even say I DO believe in demons because i believe some spirits are bad and try to harm people. I just don't know what they are. I don't think they're red with horns and little pitch forks though. :Wall:

#14 greg_dragonlvr

greg_dragonlvr

    Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western Illinois
  • Interests:Camping, wilderness adventures, ancient engineering, modern physics and electronics, martial arts and native cultures.

Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:08 AM

It is a good thing to disagree. It is a Very big universe and I am sure that there are zillions of things that we can't even imagine. My opinion carries as much weight as anybody else. I am just tired of certain inividuals using fear of (in my opinion :owl: ) a mythical or extremely rare critter for personal or 'professional' gain. Looking at threads here and other places, you find demonic influences laying thick upon the ground. When in 99 and some fraction % of the events, some less drastic and/or harmful solution is called for.

Physicians, law enforcement agencies and even good car mechanics use procedures to evaluate situations and are usually careful to apply the minimum effort to achieve the results desired. There is always the concern for the worse case, but it is always the last resort. Limb removal, the full swat team or a complete tranny replacement is never the first solution.

So it is with great dismay that I see the "D" word flying about almost on a daily basis, seeing the panic and anxiety it causes, when even a less experienced reader, looking at the post, can find several more humane and realistic explainations for what is going on. Many sleepless nights and a lot of trauma could be avoided by putting the brakes on the perception of there being demons and devils under every piece of furnature.

Good post, Shawn :Wall: , thanks for jumping in.

Can't Fall Off the Floor


#15 Oiche

Oiche

    Senior Villager

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 373 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central coast of Cali
  • Interests:way too many to mention, but to paraphrase:<br />Animals<br />Photography<br />Literature<br />writing<br />Paranormal research<br />Psychology<br />Sociology<br />Anthropology<br />Travel<br />Yoga<br />Cooking

Posted 09 September 2009 - 01:04 PM

Aloha, Greg! First of all I don't believe in demons, I admit that there are evils out there that never walked on earthly feet my issue is the semantics, I don't like the word demon or devil

Now the term demon/devil came to us from Judaism and due to a long history of captivity and slavery, you can see a certain similarity between the persecutors' pantheons (Babylonian, Sumerian and Egyptian) and the infernal heirarchy, Astaroth became Asmodeus, Ba'al became Baalzebul
Posted ImageThank you for not feeding the trolls




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users