hey,been gone for a while.busy writing some stuff.glad about the amount of response here...so here goes.
first a general thing to everybody: interesting find on the radio thing,thats just cool.i had a stereo that wouldnt turn on unless you push a button in and also the station changed with a dial like a volume knob on an electric guitar only huge haha. anyway every tuesday at exactly 206am it would turn on and the dial would turn to the local spanish station.is there any way something like this could be explained thats maybe similar to what opr and caverat were talking about?(note.this is a question and i will not be arguing it im just curious because the button had to be pressed in hard and the dial would be turned even though it wasnt loose.)not claiming ghost on this one,could be but who knows haha.also just for further info the button would be pushed in,it was atleast hard enough that a 5 year old kid struggled to do so.and the dial was turned to the station.
as far as bigfoot goes i have personally never been interested in it much, sure i'll watch an "in search of" video of sasquatch giant squids and nessie,but to me its mostly us searching for species like crazy,which isnt bad and some of the arguments and what not are kind of interesting but all and all theres lots of undiscovered species. i do think it would be easier to prove the existence of living things like this as opposed to ghosts although not as much more as one might think since any video or picture will immediately be viewed as either fact or fiction by the general public.
also where did this proof talk start up?i have experienced things that make me believe without a doubt in ghosts.a cereal box flying across the room is in no way on of those things.this isnt about proving something to skeptics.this is about relaying an experience and that experience being explained to you in ways that make no since. note:i will never EVER try to prove or disprove a ghost here on this site,ESPECIALLY not in this thread.if i post something here for skeptics i guarantee i am not trying to convert you.no friggin way.what i will want is a different view point.nothing more nothing less.if i disagree i may argue,if you disagree you may argue.dont try to get me to change my way of thinking in general and i wont do the same to you.anything that involves more solid things that i saw or experience that made me a wholehearted believer WILL NOT BE IN THE SKEPTICS SECTION because i cant prove it or disprove it,so why run my unfounded beliefs in your face?i will however,discuss things like this story,the cereal box,the snap crackle pops,because its the kind of thing where no one can know the answer,not even have a personal answer that is unprovable,theres literally no way to know this way or that.and if there is i want REAL suggestions from skeptics just as much as i want crazy stories from believers.but nothing like my super strong cat.i will toss that suggestion out the window.i am 200 pounds maybe a little more and i ran at about full force into my fridge with my shoulder(even though i saw the cat was nowhere near it since it didnt happen while my back was turned,i saw it fly across the room)if i couldnt get that resut,no way the cat can.
COREY:"Well, its been said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I cant see the benefit of claiming a paranormal experience just because something cant be explained. Just because you cant explain it, doesn't mean someone else cant too."
i agree with you wholeheartedly.in the example i gave about the cereal flying off the fridge i never once claimed it was a ghost.so of course,no crazy claim on my part.on the other hand a person i told in person said that my kitten ran into the fridge and knocked it off.this is a person i know and knows how small the kitten is,i ran into the fridge hard and it took a few tries just to get the box to wobble and it was less full than it was on the night it flew a good 10-15 feet across the room without hitting the floor.they refused to believe that it was anything but the cat running into the fridge.thats an extraordinary claim in my cook,a kitty weighing a couple pounds can send a heavier box flying across the room than a 200 pund man can by sheer force?doubtful,more than a ghost.a ghost i cant prove or disprove,theres literally no way the cat could have done this.not only was their extraordinary claim not proven,it was disproven.this post has nothing to do with convincing people that ghosts exist,nothing.what it does have to do with is wild claims made the other way,yet this guy isnt crazy for saying a kitten is stronger than me and possibly stronger than spiderman,im crazier for saying this claim is just untrue regardless of what else could have caused this. also this was open to all kinds of stories and i was interested in what people were told by skeptics that were along these lines of crazy.not house settling and creaking.im talking about skeptics coming up with things that are atleast as unlikely as a spirit.and yes i find the kitten smashing into my fridge sending something flying across the room more crazy than a ghost claim(which i still have not made)
"I always use the axiom, when in doubt, throw it out.
People who dont believe will require some very good evidence to change their minds. Sometimes they may be asking for too much, but think of what your trying to prove to them. That some remnant of a long dead person is still hanging around and is making themselves known. That's a rather large pill for some people to swallow.
Instead of taking the skeptics to task, learn from what they say. Skepticism can make you a better investigator."
when in doubt test the hell out of it.if you cant come up with anything throw it in the mystery file,thats the 1st step that should be taken in proving/disproving anything.
and i know they would need good evidence to change their minds,but what about when that is not the goal,and instead im simply relaying an experience and asking for another explanation because im totally stumped?again,i cant prove or disprove ghosts and that will literally never be my goal.atleast not over the internet thats for sure,this is a discussion and comparison of beliefs.nothing more.opinions.and anything that makes any sense to me,and most that doesnt make sense is taken into account,but claims as the superkitten one i gave as a brief example,im willing to throw out the window.
"But see, the difference between saying "those noises that sound like footsteps sound like a house settling to me" is a lot different than the OP's topic headline. It's not outlandish or crazy for things like that at all - and I've actually told people where I've investigated, "No, that is NOT a ghost upstairs, that's just the house creaking." So it's not unusual for both sides to be able to agree on stuff like that."
couldnt have said it better so i stole the quote haha
"I would just be curious what constitutes a crazy explanation to supposed paranormal activity?"
super strength kitten. many other examples could be given determining on the story a LOT of wild claims are made both ways.
"I've always said that the skeptics keep us honest. I approach things from the point of view of an extreme skeptic, even though I don't consider myself one."
i agree with this statement more than you would think since i am a whole hearted believer.but more so than i am a believer,im a talker,hence the topic haha.i also believe in god but i will not sit here and try to prove him.not my place to do so. and they do keep us honest to an extent,when theyre not being ridiculous is that extent.an educated skeptic is rarely a problem,its the people who throw out random ideas just because"there is no way ghosts are real" that this topic was going after.clearly this type of skeptic is rare on this site.which is good because someone signing up to an internet forum just to bash people is dreadfully sad,i dont think 99.999% of the people on this site would be if the existence of ghosts wasnt atleast a possibilty in their mind.they almost certainly wouldnt keep coming back.
"I've seen reports dismissed because the reportee can't remember what color his sleeping bag was.
I've seen reports dismissed because some small details may have changed from one telling to another.
I've seen reports dismissed because the reportee was a terrible speller.
Now those are the kind of things where I feel the skeptics go way too far. "
i agree 100%.nothing negative to add,not anywhere near the kind of stuff im interested in when it comes to paranormal,but still insanely good point. at the same time,these kinds of dismisals happen in ghosts and ufo fields as well.just to make my claims more relatable to you.
"I know what the standard is for science to agree that there is a large, bi-pedal, North American primate running around the country, and that's a carcass.
What would be the parallel in the ghost field?"
youre absolutely right,again my claim isnt that ghosts are real,i have experiences that prove TO ME no one else,that ghosts are real,but i wont disclose those events here because 1.i dont care to prove it to anyone believer or not and 2.its not possible if i did one to.i cant prove what ive seen.imagine you've seen bigfoot right infront of you and all you got was a pic that half the world refused to believe.complete breakthrough but you'll be ridiculed as a hoaxer,atleast by some,for simply presenting the picture and the story.thats what trying to prove ghosts is like.
curious.do you find it strange that after all the searching for bigfoot that there is no body?live,dead,bones,nothing?not an attack just a question.i would think there would be something if this is a species that has lived as long as legend claims. and to answer your question:there is truly nothing equal to that on the ghost front.some will argue all these claims about repeatability and this and that.which dont get me wrong is true,but to me ghosts wouldnt seem to be so predictable,imo its something we dont understand nearly as much as we think,believers or skeptics.imo science isnt to the point that a ghost can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.or in that case disproven.
FATMAN:"I consider myself a student of logic (well, I don't really go to school for it, it's an online degree), but my experiences still have me scratching my head, or is that lice. Anyway, I treat everything with a skeptical manner. I want to hear alternate explanations. Still, I am a believer. After chasing something that disappears before you, it did make an impression on my logic."
i agree with this insanely.you see things that you know you can no longer doubt,but at the same time you can not prove it either.frustrating no? that said if i were to search for someone else its all about logic.both the logic to not call ghost on everything you cant immediately explain AND to not call BS too fast when you find another explanation REALLY test it ya know?i was watching ghosthunters international(i know lame right?haha)and they shined a light in on a suit of armor. ooh cast a shadow human shaped thats what it is done.wtf? thats not investigation by any means especially since it cast a human shaped shadow(duh) in a different spot than the place where the shadow was popularly reported.also there was an instence where there were "orbs"(which im not big on) floating across a video taken by a security camera.then the one scrawny dude put on some reflector jacket,supposedly really popular,and runs across the camera.it literally looked NOTHING like the original image,they called it debunked. basically they proved that the camera works and picks up people,it beared no resemblance haha.
"I guess we all just need to keep going over the evidence. Personally, I think there's more than enough evidence out there to prove it; it's just a matter of skeptics believing or just considering, but that's their rightful decision."
i disagree.i truthfully havent seen any proof outside of my own eyes.nothing that can fully prove a stranger anyways.thats the missing piece.and as i said,i dont think science is up to it yet.
"Corey, your last paragraph really says it. If someone is a full-blown skeiptic and will not consider the evidence provided regardless of the technology used to obtain it, then what is the point."
boo ya.no point.thats why this isnt an attack on the average skeptic especially not the ones i have talked to on this site
"are we talking skeptics who don't believe at all, or are we talking skeptics that believe to whatever degree but still question the evidence?"
both and neither.all are invited since im asking for examples.but generally if the post is followed correctly any or all can pop up.basically the ones that would show up the most if followed to a T would not be people who believe to an extent or people who dont believe at all.it would be people who refuse to believe.no not even to that extent.it would be people who refuse to even consider.for the most part
"Whereas the Big Foot evidence is always argued back and forth as conclusive or not(I wish it were), I do believe the ghost evidence is already there. You can say what you want about ghostly images caught on film, evps, etc., but a lot of it can't be explained. Even though I do think it's a good indicator as to the existance, it may not be possible to get that "holy grail" of spirit evidence."
i see what you say to an extent.i find only one flaw."a lot of it cant be explained" which is a total fact,but lack of explanation is not proof of ghost.it may spark believers but it isnt proof.i do agree that the "holy grail" of spirit evidence is not possible.i repeat i dont think science is up to it yet.remember when splitting an atom was entirely laughable?happened.when science was BAD_WORD good and ready to make it go down(no pun intended).if it is possible its crazily unlikely,definetly not something scientists can walk into at this point and prove or disprove.no way.
TOM_BGH:"But see, the difference between saying "those noises that sound like footsteps sound like a house settling to me" is a lot different than the OP's topic headline. It's not outlandish or crazy for things like that at all - and I've actually told people where I've investigated, "No, that is NOT a ghost upstairs, that's just the house creaking." So it's not unusual for both sides to be able to agree on stuff like that."
OMPRDAVE:"It would be a benchmark, that is for sure. Another example would be intelligent, two way communication which would smash the one-way dialog many EVP examples provide. Finding a way to measure and then mimic the forces in play that produce poltergeist activity. Any of these examples would probably be enough to squelch the skeptics and may be enough to get serious scientific eyes cast on it."
1st off.you and caverat so far are deadlocked on the site as far as where my respect on your point of views lies.that said.this supposed "holy grail" of evidence HAS happened but it still cant be taken as proof because it could be a hoax.on more than one occasion something like this has happened and cant be explained,but still it hasnt been taken all too seriously.intelligent back and forth evp has also happened and to an extent that they cant be explained but again,NOT proof or even strong evidence,what if its a hoax?what if its just coincidental? as much as i wish this werent the case,thats how it goes.
"Unfortunately the believers probably will get rather...how to put it nicely...antsy?"said dave.
"Antsy? Why is that? Fear of the field being taken over by scientists?"asked corey.
"No...more a fear of their own beliefs being shattered."
i can only speak for myself,not believers as a whole,i have seen things that i know can never be disproven in my eyes.not cause im stubborn or anything like that,if you prove there is no human ghosts i would then be very confused as to the kinds of things i saw,definitely not just power of suggestion,that said i would love to see "proof" either way.i dont think were there yet technologically to be able to prove or disprove something like that.
"I've always said, as far as Sasquatch/Big Foot/Skunk Apes, etc, that I wish I would see more researchers getting special permit to try and kill one of these things. having armed researchers would do two things:
1.) Offer the best evidence that the researchers could possibly ask for were they able to harvest one for study.
2.) Keep the fools dressing up in monkey suits out of the woods.
Unfortunately in that field it's either going to be the stumbled on body of a dead specimen or somebody will have to harvest one. Of course there would have to be strict guidelines to make sure that it's done properly. You can't let every Tom, Dick and Harry loose with a rifle."
agree with this 100% hoaxers need to get outta here.it makes serious researchers look ridiculous.this suggestion is brilliant