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in some instances do you think skeptics come up with crazier answers than believers?


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#1 tommyhancock

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 06:58 AM

i've had my own experiences. seen some stuff. but thats not exactly what i'm here to talk about. have you ever been in or heard of a situation where there is no logical explanation as to why it happens. in these situations majority of believers would say "ghost", even without "proof",but some of the things i've heard skeptics say to explain how it could have "logically" happened make less sense than it being a ghost. if you have any examples of this i would love to hear them.

short ex: i was alone in my kitchen,2 other people were in the dining rook which is,obviously seperated by a wall but no door.as i was looking for something in a cupboard a good...15 feet away from the fridge i heard a sound(i didnt then think "ghost" i thought it was the fridge). i looked towards the fridge because the sound caught me off guard,and when i did a box of rice krispies,that was pushed securely back away from the edge,flew off the top of the fridge and landed past where i was standing BEFORE it hit the ground,and then slid almost all the way into the dining room.
the 2 people in the dining room heard the box hit and came to see what it was. i was still standing by the cupboard,top ramen in hand,and i told them exactly what i typed here.

could i explain what it was after inspecting where ti was?no
does that mean it COULDN'T have been something natural?no,im no expert of how fridges work,maybe they twitch, who knows haha.
was it a ghost or other paranormal "thing"i have no idea

now if you want to call em a liar,be my guest. the story is 100% true,i have no proof,but this stuff DOES happen and its the kind of stuff people base their belief/disbelief on.please,if you think it wasnt a ghost,feel free to say so.just dont say i or my tiny cat bumped into the fridge. didnt happen

please give examples of storys+what skeptics said

#2 Axman

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 08:40 AM

What was their reaction? Did they offer up any possible explanation?

I mentioned in another thread that I feel it's best not to be 100% skeptical, or believer for that matter. You can believe in spirits but be skeptical of what it seems. If you can find no other rational cause for the activity it must be paranormal.
Ah. Well... I attended Juilliard... I'm a graduate of the Harvard business school. I travel quite extensively. I lived through the Black Plague and had a pretty good time during that. I've seen the EXORCIST ABOUT A HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN TIMES, AND IT KEEPS GETTING FUNNIER EVERY SINGLE TIME I SEE IT... NOT TO MENTION THE FACT THAT YOU'RE TALKING TO A DEAD GUY... NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK? You think I'm qualified? --BeetlejuiceI'm the ghost with the most, babe.--BeetlejuiceWe've come for your daughter Chuck--Beetlejuice

#3 tommyhancock

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 04:42 AM

theyre both very logical and saw where i was and where it landed,so we checked the area out and...nothing.i agree with you 100% thats what i do haha.i do 100% believe in spirits. i've seen too many things with my own eyes to dispute it.again,i cant prove it,so anything i post on this site will be more for people to be entertained and/or relate to as opposed to being debated. but even believing in ghosts wholeheartedly,and that most places are affected by them in 1 way or another,i still dont believe that every little thing that happens is necessarily a ghost you know? all i'm really bringing up with this topic is that 100% skeptics can be just as rediculous as 100% believers,but most wouldnt see it that way. basically either thinking any unexplained thing is a ghost, or refusing to believe it COULD be a ghost simply because you dont believe it can be all both equally crazy in my book.you know?
p.s. this goes double for cases that skeptics are there to experience said events and refuse to believe it COULD be something. one person may believe one thing,th eother may believe something else,and both could be wrong.

#4 CaveRat2

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 08:24 AM

As a skeptic I won't say what happened in your case because quite frankly, I don't have enough information from the simple descrition provided. No other investigator does either. Just reading through your synopsis I can think of at least 20 more questions I would need answered before I would even start to form an opinion.

Just 4 examples seemingly unrelated, and the reasons why they might apply:
1. How full was the box of cereal? (That can affect its balance)
2. Composition of the countertop? (That affects the box's propensity to slide versus tip over)
3. Type of floor? (That affects how well it would slide versus roll)
4. Distance between counter and refrigerator? (Vibration possibilities here)

You get the idea. All or none of these might play a part and a serious investigation mst have questions seemingly unrelated addressed as well. Any good investigation must look into all possibilities before reaching any conclusions one way or the other.

Believers often condemn skeptics for asking seemingly unrelated questions, but keep in mind too that BOTH sides need to have supporting evidence. If for example I were to blame an air current for blowing that box of cereal off the countertp, then I need to explain where that air current originated and how that happened, just as I would expect you to provide proof that a spirit pushed it off. Works both ways.

Edited by CaveRat, 01 November 2009 - 08:27 AM.


#5 plindboe

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 08:40 PM

Skeptics would have absolutely no way of addressing your story. We weren't there, we didn't see what happened, we don't know if you missed some important details at the time, whether you misremember what took place or whether you're subconsciously adding to/removing from the story to make it appear more convincing.

It can be difficult being a skeptic trying to offer solutions, because we're entirely at the mercy of the inevitable biased recount of the storyteller. Any attempt of offering a mundane explanation will usually be met with ad hoc rationalizations.

Peter :whoohoo:
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." (Bertrand Russell)

#6 Laurie Ann

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 11:08 PM

I personally can't pin-point a specific encounter where a skeptic may have given answers that seemed to have been pulled out of their...well, just pulled out of no where. But I do know that there have been many experiences of my own that I've posted and skeptics have given me another way to look at things. I appreciate the skeptics point of view and regardless wether or not they were there, I have no reason to make things up to make things seem so much more important than the real-deal. I just seek answers, plain & simple. Ok, I do remember some examples lol...

One experience I had was hard jabs in my back one night. I was told they may have been back spasms....I don't think so, sorry. I've had back spasms before and this was no comparison. None what so ever.

I also had an experience where there were mulitple orbs in a picture I took. Not realizing the difference between orbs and orbs that are nothing more than dust (our home was built in 1880)...now I feel a bit more educated on that never-gonna-know-the-real-answer subject.

Then I had an experience where one of my sons toy car was going back & forth on the living room floor...back & forth witnessed by both me & my husband (full blown skeptic). I was told it was because of the electric wires outside my home...but this toy car had no batteries, just a broken toy car. The subject was dropped.

I am glad you brought up this post....will be very interested in others thoughts & opinions.
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#7 tommyhancock

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 08:43 AM

okay, i feel obligated to respond to everyone so...

CAVERAT:
not necessarily asking for an opinion on my story, just a short and very undetailed example. what i'm asking is based on any personal stories you as a skeptic may have heard, and came to a conclusion , or even a personal experience you may yourself have witnessed and came to a conclusion, for believers basically im asking the same thing, but im asking for their own stories and what skeptics who experienced/heard them offered as an explanation that they personally thought made even less sense than immediately saying its a ghost. basically coming to a decision either without looking into the situation/asking questions at all, or following up on it, getting all the facts, not understanding what it could possibly be, and still giving an explanation that makes no sense.

honestly i based on the fact that youre asking questions leads me to believe youre not the kind of skeptic im speaking of here, you use logic, not just claim to use logic because youre opposed to the side who believes in ghosts and magic haha. also simply admitting that you dont have enough information to say "no way it was a ghost" is a good sign as well. and i agree with everything you said about more being needed to come to a conclusion one way or another.im singling out people who immediately believe its a ghost as well.well not necessarily, i dont judge people for believing something is or isnt a ghost, believe what you want, but more needs to be known to state an answer rather than a belief either way. ya know?

and to answer your questions just for the heck of it:
1. How full was the box of cereal? (That can affect its balance) the box of cereal was about 75-80% full, a bowl had been eaten and also some taken out and put into a cup for a kid to snack on earlier than day.
2. Composition of the countertop? (That affects the box's propensity to slide versus tip over) it was sitting on top of a doily like placemat/table cloth on top of the fridge. the box would have had to slide 5 inches just to topple off onto the floor.i can assure you it was hard to make the box slide without touching it yourself,i put it back up there and even bumped into it very hard, a couple of the tries i got it to fall down and even slide, but not half as far. keep in mind it landed near me before it touched the floor.i was about 15 feet away.
3. Type of floor? (That affects how well it would slide versus roll) admittedly i dont know what kind of flooring it is exactly haha.its tile and you can easily slide things on it, thats why the box did slide an extra 5 or so feet to the dining room doorway, where the carpet in said dining room slowed it down.
4. Distance between counter and refrigerator? (Vibration possibilities here) i was basically on the counter 15 feet away haha. but it does bend around the corner and get much closer to the fridge. still theres more than a foot wide gap between the fridge and the counter and all i was doing was grabbing a Maruchan Top Ramen© chicken flavored, that was easily reachable. i didnt like dig through it, definetly nothing violent enough to cause it to vibrate in a way that would cause that box to fly like that, especially since the other boxes didnt move at all.

and as far as the last paragraph you put up after the questions, i agree wholeheartedly.
keep in mind though while i do believe in ghosts 100% i do not claim that this scenario was a ghost, i claim it could have been and that to think it was isnt the most insane guess ever.

question:on a scale of 1-10 1 being 100% skeptic, 10 being 100% believer, what would you rate yourself

PETER:
i know what you say is true, but remember i'm not asking for you to disprove my story, which by the way, im not 100% convinced was a ghost. id say more like 60% sure, only because i can think of no other answer and i have other reasons to believe there are(or could be) ghosts in this house. but thats neither here nor there in this particular discussion

i know we've never talked before this, but keep in mind i am reasonable and im in no way saying im always right or even saying that this was paranormal in any case. in fact my story is just an example to the entire idea of the post.

im saying there are situations, mine as an example, but also many other situations where there is simply no answer 1 way or another to prove it was or was not a ghost. it isnt limited to me or even to stories relayed to skeptics, it can be a situation where a skeptic was present. im asking for those kinds of examples, not validation of my own experience. personally i dont put much stock in proof of my own experiences, theyre my own, i have my feelings about them*not all of which are immediately and unquestionably leaning in the way of the blind believer) i have some situations i would love validated because they baffle me.but all and all, im more open-minded and thoughtful when i hear someones stories, i'll offer other explanations when i can, i'll say i have no explanation when thats the case, and if i think it sounds like a ghost, i'll say so.

i'm saying believers can be insanely rediculous.but im saying skeptics can be as well. not saying all of either group as a whole is rediculous. as i told caverat above logic is in his questions, and it seems in your statements as well. but in some cases with skeptics, as well as believers you get answers that are insanely unlikely or even impossible, even if they were present, rather than a simple "i have no idea"

p.s. i accept mundane offers as long as they are atleast possible and in most cases i'll put them to the test personally

LAURIE ANN:
i completely appreciate and respect a skeptics point of views myself, and their logic in most cases is far beyond a believers, i can say that being a believer and know its the truth. and though i am a believer in spirits and supernatural, im skeptical to events on a case by case basis. and i admiti have been given other ways to look at things by skeptic point of views, but i have also offered said points of views to believers myself. i have no problem with different belief systerms.
also while i dont blame you of exaggerating anything to make it more significant, this does happen. and skeptics have to take it into consideration. i get all of that completely. but what if theyre there to see it or know the person well enough to trust atleast what they believe to have happened? as long as its plausible, or atleast possible, i'll accept any answer as a possibility and look into it.

i havent have back spasms, but there is a state between rem sleep and waking or even while falling asleep that your body can feel a sensation physically because of your state of mind/ thought example: have you ever almost been asleep and feel like your falling? you know in fact youre not falling and youre in fact safe in bed, but the feeling of falling is real enough for you to brace yourself. im not at all saying this is what it was, nor do i know what state you were in as far as how tired/near sleep you were. just something to think about that you might find plausible

as far as orbs go, i've never personally bought in to them much. again note i said personally. i dont know what to look for in that particular case so i just write it off. but that doesnt mean it couldnt be something more than dust.

the last bit about the toy car, just weird haha. i couldnt tell you what it was but i know stuff like that does happen.

and thanks i thought it needed to be addressed haha :)

#8 Caniswalensis

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:43 AM

Hi,

Below is a link to my personal experience story. Since you are asking for them.

I catch a fair amount of grief from people over my final outcome on this one. I feel it makes the best sense, but some disagree. I still allow for a chance that my explanation is wrong. I just have no evidence that it is.

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http://www.ghostvill...y...c=27645&hl=

"It is proper for you to doubt ... do not go upon report ... do not go upon tradition ... do not go upon hear-say." ~ Buddha


#9 CaveRat2

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:52 PM

Tommyhancock, I think we probably think about alike regarding explanations. Both sides have put some pretty rediculous statements out regarding various cases. My questions were simply examples of the first 4 things that popped into my mind before even studying the particulars of the case you outlined. In reality, if I was actaully called in and working the case, my next step would involve an on-site investigation where many of my questions would be addressed. That certainly would lead to more questions, and only then would I put out some possible explanation based on what I saw / measured at the scene.

I do think most of the crazy explanations some skeptics give are either because they didn't take the time to consider all possibilities, or are simply so full of themselves they couldn't bear to say "I don't know".

And to answer you question regarding where I rate myself, on a scale of 1 - 10, with 1 being a total cynic, and 10 being a believer in anything, I would put myself about a 3. I question everything, believe nothing just on say so, but am convinced there are some things happening we haven't been able to rationally explain. That may be because they are paranormal, or it may be because we just aren't asking the right questions.

#10 tommyhancock

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 06:37 AM

caverat, i mean not to brown nose haha. but you got the topic of my post more than anyone. im thinking we do think about alike as far as PROVING a situation, if i hear a story, its more like woah that would be crazy haha.im not saying i disregard it, since i myself can tell some that sound pretty crazy as well.just saying i wont believe wholeheartedly.but i would definetly take it into consideration.and yes BOTH sides have definetly put out crazy and sometimes utterly rediculous statements in regards to various cases.and of course no definitive answers can be given without an on sight investigation, it would only be opinions or ideas.

"I do think most of the crazy explanations some skeptics give are either because they didn't take the time to consider all possibilities, or are simply so full of themselves they couldn't bear to say 'I don't know'."
THANK YOU. this statement is the heart of what i was saying.not only believers get crazy based on what they believe/refuse to believe. and of course i dont think this is every skeptic, or every believer. just some who should either look at both sides of each statement or, believer or skeptic, spare the person asking the questions or relaying the story the trouble of reading/ hearing something clouded by your one sided way of thinking. it is possible for someone to be scientifically thorough, but utterly close minded.

and just for conversations sake i put myself at about 6 or 7.i believe there is definitely more out there than we know, ghosts included. but as far as most cases go i think people just get excited sometimes haha.that said i truthfully believe i have been in contact with a ghost. but since i cant prove it i will never use it against anyones belief system.

#11 fatman

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 02:31 PM

Of my four concious experiences, I have never had someone take the skeptic side. Maybe it's just because most, if not all, of the people with whom I associate are believers to one extent or another and just had the most typical/reasonable reactive questioning of the situations .
The three entities I saw were with me alone or, in the case of one of the experiences, my wife was asleep just feet away and I was wide away brushing my teeth preparing to go to work. The fourth was a door loudly locking itself while I was out in the garage.
The situation was that I had gone into the garage to get the screw-driver I needed. My wife was inside the house on the couch in the living room adjacent to the garage holding our guinea pig (that's where she was when I went out into the garage). My son was in the kitchen on the opposite end of the continuous room containing the living room, breakfast room and then kitchen without any kind of wall or barrier between the rooms. They were at opposite ends of the continuous room. My son was washing the rodent's food bowl in the sink in direct observation of my wife (he has the tendency to goof off on his chores).
Upon entering the garage, I closed the door behind me so my sdog wouldn't following me out. As I was bent over scanning the toolbox (I had yet to start seaching though the box with my hands), the dead-bolt lock on me with two deliberate clicks. Thinking it was my son, I finished what I was doing and went to the door, finding it definitely locked. My wife and son didn't hear the dead-bolt lock, but did hear the banging and cussing when I couldn't get the door opened. During the cuss storm, my son came over and unlocked the door,. I had heard my wife from the couch tell him to go unlock the doo after I started banging. He opened the door and as I rushed him and he fled into the living room, my wife yelled back that he didn't lock it because he was at the sink the entire time I was in the garage, which was about three minutes or so. My wife is not one to pull something like that without leting me in on the joke after a few minutes.
We discussed it afterwards. We even considered that the dogs had tripped the lock, though my dog is too short to reach. We even test-stretched her, but she came up really short, literally. The other dog, though being taller and totally capable of doing so, was ruled out because I heard no scratching on the door; only the dead-bolt locking itself, and apparently he was in the kitchen with my son. I don't see how a large dog could have jumped up and flipped the lock with his paw without scratching the door. Besides, he's scared of me. He avoids where I am or have been.
So I keep flipping that one over and over in my head. Others I have told consider the dog theory, but still scratch their head. I still ask my son from time to time whether he was telling the truth, even though my wife vouched for him. I can talk him out of a lie since he's functionally autistic and can be influenced to come around to the truth with steady questioning.
I have yet to have a true skeptic , or any kind skeptic for that matter, face-to-face consisder this one. There could be alternate explanations of which I have yet to conceive.
By the way, I am a believer with a skeptic's observational consideration. Unless it's what I consider obvious evidence, I am skeptical of the story, picture, etc.

#12 tom_bgh

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 03:37 PM

Anyone who has used a type of EMF meter & has (at the very minimum) a basic knowledge of how they work knows that there are several devices and structures that will cause false readings. Usually, these are taken into account, as they should be. One suggestion that I decided to test out was the idea that airplanes flying overhead could be the cause false readings on an EMF meter.

Since I live close enough to an airport where several different types of airplanes fly over my house - both large and small craft, at various heights - this was pretty easy to do. However, I also asked for some help for this experiment, and several different people in paranormal groups from around the country helped out - so many different types of meters were used, both indoors and outdoors, and in differing weather. The result? Nobody had a single reading.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but the point of the experiment was to see if it was probable. From the results (and the week or so that I personally did my own part), I'd have to say no.

Keep in mind that I was not trying to prove one way or the other if EMF meters show the presence of ghosts, merely if airplanes were a likely source of false readings.

#13 CaveRat2

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:21 PM

Tom, I'm not surprised at the results of your experiment. Consider aircraft are built of mostly non-ferrous metals (aluminum and other light weight alloys.)

Plus aircraft electronics are well shielded to prevent radiation of any fields which might interfere with other devices on the plane. Such radiation if allowed to occur could cause catastrophic results if it interfered with critical systems on board.

About the only EMF that may be generated would be an RF signal from radar or radio transmissions. These would be sporadic, present only if that particular system was actually in operation at the time. Most navigation equipment is receive only, (GPS, etc.) This by nature would not generate an EM Field beyond its immediate vecenity.

#14 OMPRDave

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 07:56 PM

My alarm clock radio picks up no local stations at all, but each Thursday morning (and I have no idea why it only happens on these days other than Logan Airport changes it VOR transponders on certain days - only thing I can think of) but I can listen to all the aircraft coming in to Logan airport.

I suppose I could sit and watch on those mornings to see if my old meter trips each time an aircraft transmits through the radio. However I would have to guess that regular radio stations which broadcast at 50,000 watts nearby would give the same results constantly.

???

Edited by OMPRDave, 12 November 2009 - 07:56 PM.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

#15 CaveRat2

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:08 AM

The radio may have a problem with the tuner section since you say it picks up no local stations. The superhetrodyne principle involves a local oscillator running at a variable frequency. This is beat against the frequency of the radio station to create a difference between them. That is what you hear.

Now suppose the frequency of the local oscillator is way off due to a defect, then the radio would tune way out of band. Possibly it may tune the aircraft band instead of the normal bands intended, thus you could be hearing aircraft transmissions.

The only way to check these posibilities is exactly as you planning; investigate using known methods and develop your protocol based on the results you obtain. There is no way anyone can say conclusively what is going on unless they are there and can view results from observations made on site.




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