86 replies to this topic

[duncan36]

Old Guy, on May 23 2010, 12:03 PM, said:

duncan36, on May 22 2010, 09:27 PM, said:

According to almost every culture since the dawn of time. Almost every culture had myths about hades or the underworld. If you will notice in Roman myths people could travel into and out of the underworld without dying. Its obviously an ancient peoples way of telling stories about a certain kind of energy. The stories were flowered up and embellished to try to tell serious observations about life to children.

I'm a Christian, so I know the point you're making. But I'm also a technologist, so I know "ancient peoples" also believed this planet was flat and that everything revolved around it.

Are we still stuck in "dawn of time" thinking?

We can demonstrate conclusively that planet is NOT flat and that the universe does NOT revolve around it. Yet as far as an afterlife goes, with very minor exceptions, we can demonstrate - NOTHING.

That was the Roman Catholic church which was quite repressive of all scientific thought, other ancient cultures didnt share that belief. The Ancient Greeks and Romans in several texts made observations concluding the earth was round.

You're missing the point about Hades also, in Roman myth it was more like a plane of existence than a Christian style afterlife since living people could go there.

[Old Guy]

duncan36, on Jun 3 2010, 08:19 PM, said:

That was the Roman Catholic church which was quite repressive of all scientific thought, other ancient cultures didnt share that belief. The Ancient Greeks and Romans in several texts made observations concluding the earth was round.

True. But the Church wasn't alone. If you happened to disagree with the aristocracy in many cultures, you could easily find yourself in hot water.

I seem to recall (from feeble memory) that Ancient Greeks and Romans observed the earth to round ... like a coin. Some further sesearch is in order...

duncan36, on Jun 3 2010, 08:19 PM, said:

You're missing the point about Hades also, in Roman myth it was more like a plane of existence than a Christian style afterlife since living people could go there.

I beg to disagree. I may not have stated it, but I know that virtually every culture holds the belief of some form of positive and negative afterlife. I always refer back to that because of it's binary nature. "Plane of existence" is a very good description...

[Illuminated One]

To all the skeptics remember this- YOU ARE ONLY A SKEPTIC ONCE- Everyone has said that they do not believe in the paranormal at one point in their lives, UNTIL they had their first experience. But skeptics are turning into believers everyday. Believers aren't turning into skeptics. Remember that WHEN and IF you have your first paranormal experience.

IlluminatedOne

[Caniswalensis]

Illuminated One, on Jun 11 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

To all the skeptics remember this- YOU ARE ONLY A SKEPTIC ONCE- Everyone has said that they do not believe in the paranormal at one point in their lives, UNTIL they had their first experience. But skeptics are turning into believers everyday. Believers aren't turning into skeptics. Remember that WHEN and IF you have your first paranormal experience.

IlluminatedOne

This is not exactly true, IO.

I grew up as a believer, and later became a skeptic. I have had experiences that I at first took to be paranormal, but when I re-examined them with an open mind I realized there were other possible explanations besides the paranormal.

We should all realize that we are capable of errors in perception, and strive to be as critical & objective towards our own experiences as we are those of others.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the existence of paranormal phenomena cannot be proven by popular opinion.

Regards, Canis

[Illuminated One]

Caniswalensis, on Jun 11 2010, 01:12 PM, said:

Illuminated One, on Jun 11 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

To all the skeptics remember this- YOU ARE ONLY A SKEPTIC ONCE- Everyone has said that they do not believe in the paranormal at one point in their lives, UNTIL they had their first experience. But skeptics are turning into believers everyday. Believers aren't turning into skeptics. Remember that WHEN and IF you have your first paranormal experience.

IlluminatedOne

This is not exactly true, IO.

I grew up as a believer, and later became a skeptic. I have had experiences that I at first took to be paranormal, but when I re-examined them with an open mind I realized there were other possible explanations besides the paranormal.

We should all realize that we are capable of errors in perception, and strive to be as critical & objective towards our own experiences as we are those of others.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the existence of paranormal phenomena cannot be proven by popular opinion.

Regards, Canis

You're right it can't be be proven by popular opinion.
PARANORMAL- Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.

[Old Guy]

Illuminated One, on Jun 11 2010, 01:22 PM, said:

Remember that WHEN and IF you have your first paranormal experience.

I have had several "experiences." We can assume from your post, that you have, too. What made them "paranormal?"

If you've read this thread, you should have concluded, that the skeptics here are also believers - of something.

[ohreally?]

You skeptics would change your mind if you would have a personal experience.
An oft used but pointless argument. Now let me skew the bell curve a bit more.
I'm skeptical of all claims of the paranormal. I've had some odd things happen years ago. In no way did those odd things convince me as it convinces some [to easily] that need in there lives something more than what they wake up to every morning. I remain to this day skeptical of all claims of the paranormal.

P.S. Skepticism is a small but growing movement. There are skeptical groups all over the world.

Edited by ohreally?, 11 June 2010 - 09:32 PM.

[Laurie Ann]

I have to say that I look at both sides of the argument, even though I've had numerous experiences that have made me wonder. And although I still have some very unexplainable things that have happened, i can assure you that it's not because I need something more in my life to wake up to. I have enough on my plate and then some, so I really don't "look" for paranormal things to happen....they just happen. But I have so much going on that I don't have the time to record, nor care about, all the stuff that would normally make me want to pack up & move.

I'm a believer, but I also have my priorities in order. And I have to be thankful for the skeptics because they've given me a different outlook...a different way of looking at the paranormal. So now instead of freaking out over a picture falling off the wall & screaming "ghost!", I take into consideration the realistic crap behind it...like I need to learn to hang pictures more correctly & slow down on the caffeine.

[OMPRDave]

Illuminated One, on Jun 11 2010, 03:22 PM, said:

To all the skeptics remember this- YOU ARE ONLY A SKEPTIC ONCE- Everyone has said that they do not believe in the paranormal at one point in their lives, UNTIL they had their first experience. But skeptics are turning into believers everyday. Believers aren't turning into skeptics. Remember that WHEN and IF you have your first paranormal experience.

IlluminatedOne

I cannot agree with this post at all. I have had several experiences, and while most of them may have still yet to be explained somehow I would still not go so far as to say I believe in the mainstream ideas of what constitutes a haunting and the ideas of survival of intellect after bodily death. By remaining skeptical I remain open to the possibility of whatever evidence supplies the answer to these experiences. Without any evidence to either support or dispel the cause of the experience it would be unreasonable for me to say i either believe in the mainstream ideas or don't believe altogether.

[stevenedel]

I would like to point out, once again, that skepticism isn't a 'belief' or a 'movement' - it is a method, simply consisting of a critically questioning way of thinking about evidence, and therefore a necessary condition for any serious research. A believer in ghosts who claims not to be a skeptic is in fact saying that he/she is incapable of conducting reliable ghost research.

You can believe whatever you want, but when it comes to evidence you have to ask yourself all the time if, why and how the things you saw or heard or felt prove the existence of ghosts. Personal experience is never evidence because it is impossible to rule out such alternative explanations as self-suggestion, dreaming, or hallucination. Of course you will say that you weren't dreaming or hallucinating, and that the experience was real - but how can you know for sure? Obviously the experience felt real to you, but how does that prove it originated outside of you? Furthermore, we have ample evidence that people can experience things that aren't there; we have no evidence of ghosts. So which is the more likely explanation? Be honest.

And IO, here's another believer who turned skeptic, so your supposition is untrue.

[simman]

If you experience it, it exsists. If you don't then it doesn't and until that experience is done then you have what is known as the nonbeliever.

[Oiche]

True to an extent, but who's to say that what the person(s) experienced is actually what happened. You're adrenaline's pumping especially if you know others have had unusual experiences at a location so even a routine incident could be misconstrued as something unusual

[Oiche]

I'm not trying to punk anyone's beliefs, I'm just saying that I'd be asking all sorts of questions as far as interviewing the witness

[Ryuu]

I don't think the paranormal can ever be truly proven there will always be someone who will be skeptical.

"The paranormal can't be proven only believed" that is my philosophy

[Oiche]

Very true, mon ami