12 replies to this topic

[JimDe]

Dear scientists,

I would personally like to thank you for the invention of the Light bulb, Computers and Cable Television. I also believe in the probable existence of ‘ghosts’.
I do however give some of you guys/gals credit for trying… better luck next time, when we discuss …the reincarnation of the immortal soul.

Regards,
Jim

[Caniswalensis]

lol! What brought this on!?

[Robot]

I'm confused? Is this addressed to ALL Scientist's? I find Scientists to be diverse in their religious/spiritual beliefs.

Many people I communicate with, keep Science out of their Paranormal,Spiritual beliefs, I respect this. I am Christian and try to keep my religion separate from my Science.

I can't speak for Scientists, only from my own perspective. I believe the Paranormal field is rife with "bad" science. It is NOT my "job" to clean bad science from the internet, but having an "expert" "educate" others with mis-understood science, hurts the credibility of the Paranormal and Physics field(s).

Michio Kaku, Stephen Hawking, String Theory, Dark Matter, etc, are hot topics on the Science Channel and the Barnes and Noble bookstores. They imeediately set off my B.S. radar. I like Barnes and Noble and the Science Channel, but you cannot get a good Science Education watching them.

Then purpose of Barnes and Nobel and the Science Channel is to MAKE MONEY. You MUST buy the book, and NOT change the channel. They mostly feed you Science "Dessert", not the important "Meat and Potatoes". Did I spell "Potatoes" correctly

When you are forced to pay for a text book,(that is not driven by sales popularity, and is scrutinized by others in the field), then lectured and tested on it's content, this is a real motivator for learning.

I don't only hope people will "Think" and NOT B.S.

Personally, I have had a few paranormal experiences that none of my "Science" could explain. I believe there are "Paranormal Mechanisms". Most people in Science that I correspond with are open to the possibility or Paranormal Mechanisms.

I am currently researching a Church that has a "Ghostly Choir" sing every morning. I cant go into detail because of respect of a confidentiality agreement. In this particular instance, I believe a "natural" undiscovered mechanism is at work, perhaps a Periodic Acoustic Soliton cause by more than a hundred years of singing the same song in the same place over and over. I dont think Ghost's get together and sing here every morning.

I dont have a clue what Ghost's are, but I do believe in conscious energy based beings, this from personal experience.

I think Skepticism is a healthy thing, I correspond with one of the "best known" Skeptics of the "Paranormal". Sometimes I question the Skeptics motivation..........

I really don't debate much, I have my beliefs and use Science to create "Models" to help support them. It should be noted Science "Models" often dont represent "reality", they are just useful, then modified as needed.

How about we all work together for the betterment of the "Paranormal field"?

As I said I'm not sure what the point of this post is? I'm happy to answer any and all replies.

I promise I wont "attack" anyone, only bad science. Regards, John

[Robot]

Caniswalensis, on Mar 30 2010, 11:07 PM, said:

lol! What brought this on!?

Your personal story is fascinating! Dig deep enough into quantum mechanics and quantum electrodynamics and you will find ghost's!

"Reality" is much more subjective than most realize......................

Edited by Robot, 31 March 2010 - 05:56 AM.

[Laurie Ann]

~Although my little talk will not mount up to all the scientific talk here, I have to say that with all paranormal research, you have to have some type of scientific view point added into the equation. You have to have some type of skepticism mixed into the investigation. Although I'm a believer, since reading alot of posts (but not commenting because I'm more of a "learner" & not a "teacher") from skeptics and scientists, I've learned to question every dang thing I think maybe, could be paranormal.

...just my opinion on this subject.

[Robot]

Laurie Ann, on Mar 31 2010, 07:20 AM, said:

~Although my little talk will not mount up to all the scientific talk here, I have to say that with all paranormal research, you have to have some type of scientific view point added into the equation. You have to have some type of skepticism mixed into the investigation. Although I'm a believer, since reading alot of posts (but not commenting because I'm more of a "learner" & not a "teacher") from skeptics and scientists, I've learned to question every dang thing I think maybe, could be paranormal.

...just my opinion on this subject.

A very good attitude and philosophy in my opinion.

[stevenedel]

Robot, on Mar 31 2010, 05:51 PM, said:

Michio Kaku, Stephen Hawking, String Theory, Dark Matter, etc, are hot topics on the Science Channel and the Barnes and Noble bookstores. They immediately set off my B.S. radar. I like Barnes and Noble and the Science Channel, but you cannot get a good Science Education watching them.

Then purpose of Barnes and Nobel and the Science Channel is to MAKE MONEY. You MUST buy the book, and NOT change the channel. They mostly feed you Science "Dessert", not the important "Meat and Potatoes". Did I spell "Potatoes" correctly

When you are forced to pay for a text book,(that is not driven by sales popularity, and is scrutinized by others in the field), then lectured and tested on it's content, this is a real motivator for learning.

I don't only hope people will "Think" and NOT B.S.

Personally, I have had a few paranormal experiences that none of my "Science" could explain. I believe there are "Paranormal Mechanisms". Most people in Science that I correspond with are open to the possibility or Paranormal Mechanisms.

I am currently researching a Church that has a "Ghostly Choir" sing every morning. I cant go into detail because of respect of a confidentiality agreement. In this particular instance, I believe a "natural" undiscovered mechanism is at work, perhaps a Periodic Acoustic Soliton cause by more than a hundred years of singing the same song in the same place over and over. I dont think Ghost's get together and sing here every morning.

I dont have a clue what Ghost's are, but I do believe in conscious energy based beings, this from personal experience.

I think Skepticism is a healthy thing, I correspond with one of the "best known" Skeptics of the "Paranormal". Sometimes I question the Skeptics motivation..........

I really don't debate much, I have my beliefs and use Science to create "Models" to help support them. It should be noted Science "Models" often dont represent "reality", they are just useful, then modified as needed.

How about we all work together for the betterment of the "Paranormal field"?

Hm. Just because stuff sells that doesn't make it bullBAD_WORD. But of course I would say that, seeing that I take my very limited knowledge of theoretical physics mainly from the likes of Hawking and Kaku. I'm sure I wouldn't understand 90% of the material you are propagating. I do understand enough, though, to know that the latest thoughts in physics are not a free-for-all, where you can just fit in any strange experience that was in need of an explanation.

But actually, all that is beside the point. It is absolutely pointless to speculate about explanations of phenomena for which we have no evidence. The question is not if quantum mechanisms or some peculiar acoustic 'soluton' (?) can conjure up an invisible choir; the first question is whether you will be able to come up with solid evidence of that choir's existence.

Rather than delving into obscure reaches of string theory or what-have-you, most paranormal investigators (not necessarily meaning you, Robot) would benefit far more from a simple, basic course in research methodology.

Edited by MoonChild, 01 April 2010 - 02:43 AM.

[THE MESSENGER]

Hi Jim,
The definition of Reincarnation is:

1. The belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.
2. Rebirth of the soul in a new body.
3. A new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.

I don't know exactly where you are going with the last part of your statement, but I do assure you that I am one who truly agrees in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ because He did die and rose from the grave on the 3rd day and He did come back to earth afterwards before He ascended to His Father God.

But as for us mere humans, once we die our souls leave our bodies and don't return to 'this' earth ever again. If your Savior is Jesus Christ, you will return to the new 'Heaven' which will be placed here after the old earth has been renovated. It says, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."( Revelation 21:1 )

When we do return to earth on the day of Christs return and He awards those for enduring and fighting the good fight of faith, those who served Him will be given glorified bodies. Bodies that will never have to go through any form of pain of any kind anymore. So if dying and receiving a new body once Christ returns constitutes reincarnation... I'm all for it!

I've heard it said that a man could die and come back as a common house fly, thats funny.

What is your stance?

The Messenger

[Robot]

stevenedel, on Mar 31 2010, 08:46 AM, said:

Robot, on Mar 31 2010, 05:51 PM, said:

Michio Kaku, Stephen Hawking, String Theory, Dark Matter, etc, are hot topics on the Science Channel and the Barnes and Noble bookstores. They imeediately set off my B.S. radar. I like Barnes and Noble and the Science Channel, but you cannot get a good Science Education watching them.

Then purpose of Barnes and Nobel and the Science Channel is to MAKE MONEY. You MUST buy the book, and NOT change the channel. They mostly feed you Science "Dessert", not the important "Meat and Potatoes". Did I spell "Potatoes" correctly

When you are forced to pay for a text book,(that is not driven by sales popularity, and is scrutinized by others in the field), then lectured and tested on it's content, this is a real motivator for learning.

I don't only hope people will "Think" and NOT B.S.

Personally, I have had a few paranormal experiences that none of my "Science" could explain. I believe there are "Paranormal Mechanisms". Most people in Science that I correspond with are open to the possibility or Paranormal Mechanisms.

I am currently researching a Church that has a "Ghostly Choir" sing every morning. I cant go into detail because of respect of a confidentiality agreement. In this particular instance, I believe a "natural" undiscovered mechanism is at work, perhaps a Periodic Acoustic Soliton cause by more than a hundred years of singing the same song in the same place over and over. I dont think Ghost's get together and sing here every morning.

I dont have a clue what Ghost's are, but I do believe in conscious energy based beings, this from personal experience.

I think Skepticism is a healthy thing, I correspond with one of the "best known" Skeptics of the "Paranormal". Sometimes I question the Skeptics motivation..........

I really don't debate much, I have my beliefs and use Science to create "Models" to help support them. It should be noted Science "Models" often dont represent "reality", they are just useful, then modified as needed.

How about we all work together for the betterment of the "Paranormal field"?

Hm. Just beacuse stuff sells that doesn't make it bulls**t. But of course I would say that, seeing that I take my very limited knowledge of theoretical physics mainly from the likes of Hawking and Kaku. I'm sure I wouldn't understand 90% of the material you are propagating. I do understand enough, though, to know that the latest thoughts in physics are not a free-for-all, where you can just fit in any strange experience that was in need of an explanation.

But actually, all that is beside the point. It is absolutely pointless to speculate about explanations of phenomena for which we have no evidence. The question is not if quantum mechanisms or some peculiar acoustic 'soliton' (?) can conjure up an invisible choir; the first question is whether you will be able to come up with solid evidence of that choir's existence.

Rather than delving into obscure reaches of string theory or what-have-you, most paranormal investigators (not necessarily meaning you, Robot) would benefit far more from a simple, basic course in research methodology.

I wouldnt say the Barnes and Noble stuff is bulls**t, I would say you only get a tiny part of the picture, unfortunately, the tiny part is often the most entertaining part, so you dont put the book down or change the channel saying "This is too complicated". Most of the time you cant productively extrapolate on this tiny part of the picture you are given. Some of this "dessert" is really nothing more than (Self-Gratification through Pseudo/Over-Intellectualization), you get a good feeling, but really have not learned the important stuff.

Science/Physics constantly "speculates about explanations of phenomena for which we have no evidence". Murray Gel-Man did EXACTLY this with Quarks. He is a theorist, experimentalists later supported his "theory".

Personally I have no desire for "evidence", only better,(science based), investigative methodology.

I am coordinating with some very impressive Paranormal Investigators. They were contacted by the Pastor of a very old church, he commented on the daily choir. They investigated and got a recording. All attending members also "heard" the choir. Knowing these people, this "seems" impressive to me.

Hopefully in the near future I will listen for this "choir" myself. "IF" the choir is to be believed, I seriously doubt ghosts get together each morning to sing. This is where my Physics based "soliton" explanation comes in. If you google soliton, Wiki has a so-so page on it. If I "hear" something I will refine my soliton model and try to test it. Testing models is what Physics is about, often the models are an inaccurate description of the "reality".

Quantum waves, water waves, sound waves, light waves all share many common factors, capability for soliton production is one.

A Soliton is a "wave" that maintains integrity rather than dispersing, a soliton wave was first observed by a man on horseback, riding along a canal in the 1800's, wiki talks about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliton


"Rather than delving into obscure reaches of string theory or what-have-you, most paranormal investigators (not necessarily meaning you, Robot) would benefit far more from a simple, basic course in research methodology."

I completely agree with the directly above quote

[Robot]

Now that I have re-read my post,

"Michio Kaku, Stephen Hawking, String Theory, Dark Matter, etc, are hot topics on the Science Channel and the Barnes and Noble bookstores. They imeediately set off my B.S. radar. I like Barnes and Noble and the Science Channel, but you cannot get a good Science Education watching them."

What I should have said is, "seeing people mention these topics/authors" on the internet, sets off my B.S. alarm.

I'm sure Michio Kaku and Stephen Hawking have written many wonderful text books, and given wonderful lectures. Unfortunately the "best" wont be seen by the general public.

Perhaps something like PBS, showing good programs,(that should be shown), but ratings wont support without public/private/government financial assistance.

Edited by Robot, 31 March 2010 - 09:13 AM.

[dancinmiriam]

THE MESSENGER, on Mar 31 2010, 09:32 AM, said:

Hi Jim,
The definition of Reincarnation is:

1. The belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.
2. Rebirth of the soul in a new body.
3. A new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.

I don't know exactly where you are going with the last part of your statement, but I do assure you that I am one who truly agrees in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ because He did die and rose from the grave on the 3rd day and He did come back to earth afterwards before He ascended to His Father God.

But as for us mere humans, once we die our souls leave our bodies and don't return to 'this' earth ever again. If your Savior is Jesus Christ, you will return to the new 'Heaven' which will be placed here after the old earth has been renovated. It says, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."( Revelation 21:1 )

When we do return to earth on the day of Christs return and He awards those for enduring and fighting the good fight of faith, those who served Him will be given glorified bodies. Bodies that will never have to go through any form of pain of any kind anymore. So if dying and receiving a new body once Christ returns constitutes reincarnation... I'm all for it!

I've heard it said that a man could die and come back as a common house fly, thats funny.

What is your stance?

The Messenger

I don't often jump into the 'Skeptics' pond, but love to read the debate and feel this is one of the more intellectually weighted forums here at GV - or, at least I enjoy the many stimulating, thoughtful, thought provoking and knowledgeable folks. So, I hope I am not muddying up the pool too much in responding to the above poster's post, and apologize in advance if I have inadvertently done so. Given the forum, given the original poster's topic, it seemed off-topic and also could be insulting (our intelligence?) to many, who do not follow this poster's path of belief. The vast majority of the posts address, appropriately, the topic of scientific method (methodologies) and its application to the paranormal, or as JimDe intimates, to reincarnation (though I suspect there to be a not-so hidden joke in there?). The quoted poster's call to the faith takes a trajectory that simply does not address the topic of the thread. Specifically, answering a call to 'Scientists' in re: scientific exploration of reincarnation, by making it a statement of FACT that a man living (though with scant evidence of that, unless you take Josephus' glancing referral, as proof) 2000 yrs. ago, died, resurrected and rose into heaven, as scientific argument for proof of 'reincarnation', appears to be just an excuse to proselytize. We all come from different faith paths, or paths of belief, or even paths of searching - the latter being the path of the Skeptic as I see it, and one most noble of paths. So, in the end my longwinded missive is primarily my respectful request for the poster to consider this fact, and that 'truth' even THE TRUTH, is ever evolving and requires our unrelenting curiosity, honesty, and open hearts and minds. A platitude from only ONE of many sacred texts does not count as 'scientific' anything in my book (pun intended). Apologies, again, for any muddying of the waters.

[Robot]

dancinmiriam, on Mar 31 2010, 05:03 PM, said:

THE MESSENGER, on Mar 31 2010, 09:32 AM, said:

Hi Jim,
The definition of Reincarnation is:

1. The belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.
2. Rebirth of the soul in a new body.
3. A new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.

I don't know exactly where you are going with the last part of your statement, but I do assure you that I am one who truly agrees in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ because He did die and rose from the grave on the 3rd day and He did come back to earth afterwards before He ascended to His Father God.

But as for us mere humans, once we die our souls leave our bodies and don't return to 'this' earth ever again. If your Savior is Jesus Christ, you will return to the new 'Heaven' which will be placed here after the old earth has been renovated. It says, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."( Revelation 21:1 )

When we do return to earth on the day of Christs return and He awards those for enduring and fighting the good fight of faith, those who served Him will be given glorified bodies. Bodies that will never have to go through any form of pain of any kind anymore. So if dying and receiving a new body once Christ returns constitutes reincarnation... I'm all for it!

I've heard it said that a man could die and come back as a common house fly, thats funny.

What is your stance?

The Messenger

I don't often jump into the 'Skeptics' pond, but love to read the debate and feel this is one of the more intellectually weighted forums here at GV - or, at least I enjoy the many stimulating, thoughtful, thought provoking and knowledgeable folks. So, I hope I am not muddying up the pool too much in responding to the above poster's post, and apologize in advance if I have inadvertently done so. Given the forum, given the original poster's topic, it seemed off-topic and also could be insulting (our intelligence?) to many, who do not follow this poster's path of belief. The vast majority of the posts address, appropriately, the topic of scientific method (methodologies) and its application to the paranormal, or as JimDe intimates, to reincarnation (though I suspect there to be a not-so hidden joke in there?). The quoted poster's call to the faith takes a trajectory that simply does not address the topic of the thread. Specifically, answering a call to 'Scientists' in re: scientific exploration of reincarnation, by making it a statement of FACT that a man living (though with scant evidence of that, unless you take Josephus' glancing referral, as proof) 2000 yrs. ago, died, resurrected and rose into heaven, as scientific argument for proof of 'reincarnation', appears to be just an excuse to proselytize. We all come from different faith paths, or paths of belief, or even paths of searching - the latter being the path of the Skeptic as I see it, and one most noble of paths. So, in the end my longwinded missive is primarily my respectful request for the poster to consider this fact, and that 'truth' even THE TRUTH, is ever evolving and requires our unrelenting curiosity, honesty, and open hearts and minds. A platitude from only ONE of many sacred texts does not count as 'scientific' anything in my book (pun intended). Apologies, again, for any muddying of the waters.

I appreciate your input.

[JimDe]

Thank you all for joining in, I notice several avenues of interesting points of discussion, and I do agree that most of the discussion has been on topic or more appropriately to a point being made in OP. It’s quite possible that ‘the messenger’ merely misinterpreted the intent of the OP given their new member status on the boards. Even so, TM was within his rights to address the reincarnation issue that was intended not only as a joke but as a fn promise. (pardon me)…

THE MESSENGER, on Mar 31 2010, 09:32 AM, said:

Hi Jim,

Hi There.

Thanks for properly formatting your paragraphs and sentences, it’s much appreciated.

Jim