13 replies to this topic

[Markway]

Years ago I brcame enmeshed in a long discussion concerning water dowsing or "witching" if you prefer.

For those of you who have not tried it it certainly doesn;t deem supernatural at all. You hold up a forked stick in such a way that it's just about impossible to exert any downwards motion upon the tip. There are other techniques, but let's just stickto this one. The dowser walks over underground water and the point of the "Y" bends down with quite a bit of force when you pass over water. I can't do it, but a friend of mine can. When I hold onto one of the two branches I can feel how it works. The tip pulls down like there's some sort of magnet buried under the ground and the stick is made from steel. No "supernatural inspiration or anything. It just works. My friend told me that about one in a dozen can do this.

I went to church Sunday and he told a story about converting a guy, who among other things, was a water dowser. My pastor doesn't make things up. If he did I'd be long gone. The story was that after he'd converted the man he asked him to try water dowsing. Now, this man had no belief that water dowsing was in anyway supernatural. (Heck, the water utility used to send out dowsing kits in their service vans to help their workers to find lost waterlines.

Interestingly, after becoming a Christian he could no longer douse. Is this proof that he had been using some sort of "spirit" to do the dousing, or did his conversion affect him mentally? What? In Ireland it was common for a "witch" to bequeath her poweres to whomsoever she wished. Opinions?

[Puti]

So many people, in ignorance, get all bristled up at the word "witch" for starters. I think that the convert you speak of thought that now that he was a Christian, it would be against his religion. Not so. I've even met people who deny their God given gifts of the Holy Spirit because it's not been taught to them . Ever notice that all of the Christian scriptures that empower the human are not preached from the pulpit?

Water dowsing is a common tool used by some utility companies as you say.

[Cryscat]

He psyched him self out of doing it as such things are against his religious teachings.

[Markway]

I'm not so certain. It's easy to look to psychology for an answer to this, as a matter of fact it was my first thought. But, there were incidentals in the story for starters. The man had repeatedly told the pastor that it ws a natural thing "that anyone can do". Our minds do play us tricks though. I had another thought

In countries that believed in the fairy faith, even rural parts of the British Isles and France today, it was well understood that certain supernatural gifts were inherited, but not in the sense of running in families. The posessor of the gift would decide shortly before their death who (usually a family member) was to receive the gift and then it was passed on using physical touch. This could, of course, still be psychoogical, but I have my doubts. Remember how I could sort of "piggyback" on myfriend's gift? Well, I have read a number of people being told that "X" was right there, but were unable to see anything, so, the "practitioner" would put his or her foot upon their companion's foot which allowed the companion to temporarily make use of the other's ability. Look at MacManus's "Earth Folk" for some interesting examples.

[Puti]

Maybe in all cultures, going way back, this is common. In the Christian church it's called "the laying on of hands", for healing and bestowing "gifts" etc.

[Markway]

Sorry Puti, but this isn't correct. Laying on of hands is a method of transmitting God's power to another using the "Holy" individual as a conduit. There is no sense of making a permanent bequest of any ability. I had a Great Uncle who used to do the laying on of hands bit. It DID work, but he was so sensitive to other people's feelings and illnesses that he had to live outsie of town. Christians believe that we lack almost all pesonal power. Power comes from God. At best we are conduits and miracles are not highly regarded.

[Puti]

I agree.... and disagree. We are made of God therefore as Jesus told us we are gods. It's why in my first post on this thread I mentioned that if you'll notice, the scriptures that empower us humans are not preached from the pulpit. Churches like to keep control over us, going back to the very beginning of Christianity. They'll tell us what to believe and what to shut up about. It's hard to know, because of the way the bible was put together, by men, but what I always wanted to know is what did Jesus say, not the doctrine and dogmas of churches.

Yes, all our power comes from God and we are God in human form walking this earth as co-creators. Men and women.
I feel sorry for the Christians who believe they lack all personal power.

[Markway]

Sorry Puti,

Can't agree on this. If you accept this interpretation, salvation by faith, his crucifixion, his resurrection, essentially His whole purpose for incarnation is meaningless, and contrary to the Bible and what Jesus taught. The nature of Christ is a mystery. How can someone be both God and Man at the same time? I don't know the answer, but God obviously felt there was a need. No disrespect intended, but if you are up to what Jesus could do I'll pay your plane fare out here and you can resurrect my dead wife.

[Puti]

Markway, on 08 October 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Sorry Puti,

Can't agree on this. If you accept this interpretation, salvation by faith, his crucifixion, his resurrection, essentially His whole purpose for incarnation is meaningless, and contrary to the Bible and what Jesus taught. The nature of Christ is a mystery. How can someone be both God and Man at the same time? I don't know the answer, but God obviously felt there was a need. No disrespect intended, but if you are up to what Jesus could do I'll pay your plane fare out here and you can resurrect my dead wife.

I can see that you and I don't agree on anything and that's just fine. We all have our own opinions on what you're saying here, and that's the reason the Christian religion is so fractured. There are all kinds of Christians, but the one thing they all have in common is Jesus, as the Christ. I don't believe Jesus was born to die for my sins. I believe he came to teach us how to live in love. Jesus was a Jew and speaking to the Jews of his time about all the rules and regulations that the elders laid on the people. I often wonder if he intended to start a new religion called "Christianity". Jesus' last name was not Christ. They called him the Christ. You ask, how can someone be both God and man at the same time. Jesus tried and tried to inform us that we all are God and man at the same time. Our soul is immortal. It has always been since the beginning of creation, and will always be. Our essence is indestructible. No need for a plane fare.... your wife has already resurrected. Why is it so hard to believe that we are not only bodies of flesh and blood? Every living thing has a spirit, including trees, which comes from God. This is all I'll say on this subject because now it's sounding like it belongs in the Religion section of the board.

[Markway]

Sorry Put,

I can have a sharp tongue at times. I was blessed with too many "gifts". I have too many college credits and papers and S--t that really means nothing. I left the Mensa Society, another dead end for self congratulatory A H---s when I became disgusted with myself and the whole brain as god bit. It's just made me an outcast mostly. Who CAN I talk to? Two of my many informal studies were Theology and Comparative Religion. My dead wife was an equal and you have no idea of that sort of loss, because you are shut off from a whole world. I have felt the hand and spirit of God and the forgiveness of Christ. His teachings were nothing new(most were taught by a very famous Rabbi current at the time. Name? Quiz time.) Taught Saul/Paul (probably) (Hint). Most of what Jesus taught that was original WAS that He WAS God.It was what got Him crucified. When you are saved i.e. turn it over to Christ, He places a part of Him inside of you. Mock if you will, but since then I can feel the pull, to go to church, to do the right thing to go out of my way to be and do good. You are aware that one of the two main Jewish factions did NOT believe in an afterlife? The current generation is very leery of absolute truth or anything that points towards anyone knowing a right way. I've also seen more of your philosophy, and it ties in very well with many occult societies, as well as certain religions such as the Mormons and Scientologists. I never found these folks helpful when we needed protection during the dicier encounters we had. A simple woman reciting the Lord's Prayer had greater effect. I won't touch this again here. Markway

[Puti]

It takes a great man to apologize. Thank you.

[Markway]

I have seen miracles and wonders. Most of those miracles were doubted by those present minutes after they occurred. I hae seen maybe 1/2 of the light blotted out by something and no one here took any interest. But of course this event was SO impossible, that Carl sagan would do backflips in his grave. People have no idea what IS possible and so do not take especial notice when something extraordinary happens.

So to me, the fact that Christianity grew from a probable high of 75 to 750 people while He "Lived", to thousands after He died is pretty extraordinary. Paul tells us that hundreds saw Christ after his "death". The Teacher I referred to was Gamaliel the Elder, also called "Rabban Gamaliel". His teaching can be easily mistaken for those of Jesus, and Jesus almost certainly studied under him (rather than meandering through India or Egypt.) Why do we remember Jesus, and not Gamaliel so much? Because God wants it? Because He came back from the dead? I'm not sure, but there is no denying that even before Constantine, Christianity had gone viral.

From the point of a supernatural investigator this is not a bad thing. We realize that we are not God, but that a piece of God is in us if we accept Him, and we have some sort of compass. The world across the veil is puzzling beyond all belief. PLEASE read FWH Meyer sometimes and his book "Human Personality and it's Survival of Bodily Death". It is more challenging than Proust's "Remembrance of Things Past", but it's real and delves into material that most of us have been led away from in University. For our own safety when stepping into dark waters we need a compass and savior.

I had hoped to hear from Christians who had still retained their dowsing abilities.

[Juanita Rose Violini]

A very Christian friend of mine use to not believe in water dowsing - until he discovered he could do it! He's still very Christian and he can still dowse water. It began when they were looking to dig a well on their property and after a lot of time and money spent with no results he agreed, in desperation, to call a dowser in. A one point the dowser gave him the stick to hold and he could no longer deny the force that acted on the stick. Water was found. Now he's sure it's a science thing. : )

[Markway]

Cool! This confirms my experience years ago of being able to share the experience with someone else! Did I misunderstand? What happened to me was that I could feel the force so long as the dowser had ahold of one side of the dowsing fork, but could not do it on my own. Was your friend able to do it on his own?

I have been convinced for years that this phenomenon is an example of the preternatural, and not the supernatural, but with limited personal experience. The dowser I dealt with used it as a bit of a party trick to loosen people up, but it did work for him. He had the advantage though of having observed various groups of people struggling with the rod and could give me an idea of the frequency of the ability's occurrence. The local water and power companies out here used to believe that everyone could perform this and provided a kit for that purpose. Apparently their view was a bit optimistic. My acquaintance claimed that about 1 in a dozen (approximately) was the usual frequency of the ability.I encouraged people to try it at parties and get back to me but with no respondants, so there it sits.

I was intrigued by the possibility that this talent might not be human at all but the product of a non-human co-resident in a person's body.