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#1 mellilotflower

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 04:32 AM

Shuck, Black Shuck, Old Shuck, Old Shock, Shucky Dog, Black Shuck, the Shug Monster, Scarfe, Gally-trot, Gallytrot, Galley Trot, Moddey Dhoe, Moddey Dhoo, which means "Black Dog" and is pronounced "Mauther Thoo, Trash, Guytrash, Skriker, Barghest, Barghaist, Barguest, Barguest, Barn-ghaist, Skriker, Cappel, Padfoot, Hooter, Hairy Jack, Shag Dog, Gurt Dog or ‘great dog’, Gwyllgi (dog of darkness), Muckle Black Tyke, Choin Dubh, Cu Sith, Le Tchan de Bouôlé.  This is kind of an obsession of mine; demon/ghostly/spectral black dogs.  
The myth is generally associated with Britain, but I've read encounters from further afield.  Basically I was wondering if anyone here has had an encounter with one, they can be associated with ley lines, cross roads, gibbet sites and water... sometimes seen as omens of death, can be noted to act as banshees.
If you know of another name for them, that too would be greatly apreciated, or if you know any tales about them (aside from the hound of the baskervilles or harry potter...)
Thankyou!

The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy because it is beloved of the gods.

Sonnet XCIVBut if that flower with base infection meet,The basest weed outbraves his dignity:For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds

#2 MoonChild

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 04:45 AM

Could this be animal apparitions?
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#3 mellilotflower

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 05:52 AM

It can be clased that way sometimes, but they aren't usually the ghosts of dead animals, more energies that we give that form... or sometimes a dead person in the form of dog instead...
If you want to difine animal apparitions as an animal appearing... then yes

The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy because it is beloved of the gods.

Sonnet XCIVBut if that flower with base infection meet,The basest weed outbraves his dignity:For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds

#4 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:43 AM

[glow=green,2,300][move]Hi, Mellilotflower and welcome to GV ;D[/move][/glow]

WOW...an intriguing topic, I know a little of the myth because my best friend's British, know that the Black Dogs guard sites, both places of power and burial sites*I think there's a correlating myth that the first person interred is often designated the eternal guardian, so they killed and buried a black dog to serve as guardians of the dead. In many of the myths they're holy terrors, driving others off/away from their charges, conversely there are accounts of the BD aiding injured or lost travellers.

Hmmm...I hadn't heard of them being seen at crossroads and since the worst kind of blasphemers or criminals were executed or buried at crossroads to insure the soul will never find its way, I'm very curious as to why?

The ancient Egyptians believed that jackals, especially black jackals guided the souls of the dead to the Afterlife
and safeguarded them on the journey. Anubis had the head of a jackal and not only ferried souls, but was also one of the gods who judged the worthiness of the dead, I wonder if
there's a correlation of myths...hmmm 8)
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#5 mellilotflower

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 07:00 AM

"Gallows sites (often crossroads) were also common black dog haunts, the black dog was often seen as the spirit of the executed criminal, such as the dog said to haunt a gallows site in Tring, Hertfordshire: An old woman was drowned for witchcraft at Tring in the year 1751. A chimney sweep was held responsible in part for the killing, and was hanged and gibbeted near to the place of the crime. A black dog came to haunt the place where the gibbet stood, and was seen by the village schoolmaster. He described it as being shaggy, as big as a Newfoundland, with long ears and a tail, eyes of flaming fire and long teeth. It is interesting to note that at first the black dog appeared as a standing flame."

I hadn't heard the guardian thing... that would be to do with Church(kirk) Grims? And I hadn't connected jackals either... thankyou!

The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy because it is beloved of the gods.

Sonnet XCIVBut if that flower with base infection meet,The basest weed outbraves his dignity:For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds

#6 MoonChild

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 07:13 AM

Anubis was associated with the dead because the jackal was generally seen prowling about the tombs. In our Hindhu mythology, Crows have a prominent place in the dead, and is concidered to be closely associated with the God of Death.
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#7 OwlGoddess

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 07:27 AM

this is indeed an interesting phenomena - although the black dogs of europe and the black dogs of egyptian lore serve slightly different purposes.  

native american cultures also have various animal guardians or grave stewards - but they don't all fit neatly into the canine guise.  

just out of curiosity, could you explain a bit more about the banshee connection? ;)
Life's waters flow from darkness; Search the darkness, don't run from it.--Rumi

#8 mellilotflower

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 08:09 AM

There are tales of black dogs appearing at the foot of the bed of someone, in a certain family, who is about to die.  The encounter I read was of a nurse, looking after the youngest boy in the family all through the night.  by the morning he is dead, and when she goes to tell his parents, she comments on the faithfull dog that never left the foot of the bed the whole night through, saying that although she accepts it may have been a beloved pet, its prescence still scared her.  The family knew that if they saw a black dog at the foot of one of thier relations beds, that relation wouldn't last 24 hours...
similar to the idea that a banshee howls its warning that someone in the family will die

The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy because it is beloved of the gods.

Sonnet XCIVBut if that flower with base infection meet,The basest weed outbraves his dignity:For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds

#9 lmackey

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 08:17 AM

I don't know if this helps but there are also the whist-hounds of Wistman's Wood.  Whist meaning "spooky" and deprived from the word Wisc- the Norse God of wisdom and War, Odin (Woden).  Also known as Yell-hounds and Yeth-hounds.  Whisht hounds are headless and glowing black.  They roam the moors with their master, Odin, who carries a hunting horn or hunting pole.  Sometimes their master is said to be the Devil or Sir Francis DRAKE; he is either astride a horse or on foot.  The hounds are said to chase the souls of unbaptised children.  Another story says that the hounds themselves, where unbaptized chi;dren who return to hunt down their parents.

People who meet the hounds are said to die within a year, if they do not perish that very night.  If you meet them head on you must lie face down with arms and legs crossed and recite the Lord's prayer until they have passed.  Dogs that hear the the Whisht hounds baying are certain to die.

 Whist hounds are most frequently out on late Sundaunday nights, baying and breathing fire and smoke, They sweep acreoss the moors and end their run by vanishing over a crag.  According to lore, anyone who pursues them goes over a cliff to his death.

The Whisht hounds have been seen since 1677 in the area of Buckfastleigh.  Reports of the hounds have dwindled in the late 20th century, perhaps because of the decline in beliefs of the supernatural.  Both Whisht hounds and Black Shucks have been credited with inspiring Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in the writing of "The Hound of the Backervilles".

This information was obtained through "the Enclopedia of Ghosts and Spirits"- by Rosemary Ellen Guiley
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#10 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 08:22 AM

Hello, Mel, I can't say 100% that there's a correlation twixt the Barghast and the jackal, I do think it very intriguing that both cultures linked a canid to death. I'm afraid Moon's right, its believed that mummification was introduced to curb packs of jackals from entering crypts to eat the revered dead and the Egyptians did leave poisoned meat to kill them off since they also cough*atepets*cough.

Revisiting the crossroads issue, in Eastern Europe it was believed that those who died or were buried at a crossroads
wandered for eternity as vampires or werewolves, this was reserved for the worst of criminals, murderers and heretics,
but that's also the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church's teaching
on the matter and the Rom<gypsies>did scatter when they evacuated Egypt. Mel, I hope we'll be seeing a lot of you in posts ;D

OWLIES! Glad to have you back, my friend! If I remember what we'd discussed, Native Americans link owls to death and spirits*want to say its the great horned owl, but I think that's a Skinwalker shift*

Mel or anyone of our UK Villagers are probably far more conversant with the bian sidhe<banshee>myths than I, but if I remember, the banshee is a female ancestor's spirit, usually they're linked to noble/royal bloodlines. Banshees are heralds of death, they wail and keen for the soon to be departed's crossing, traditionally they wailed at the battements. From the accounts I'd read, the B wore tattered finery of her bygone era, but had the torso of a vuluptuous
woman and the head of a rabbit. To hear the wail was to know that someone in the household was to die*though I'd also heard that only the person who would die heard the keening*but to see the banshee was to die on the spot.

There were also the Washer women,the bian nighe, they'd wash clothes in streams or fords<wherever travellers were likely to cross>if you recognized your clothing in her basket, you would die, if there was blood on the clothing it would be a violent death...my personal take is that the bian nighe was the herald to commoners
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#11 mellilotflower

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 08:33 AM

ooo, the whist-hounds are good, its almost like the wild hunt, especially with the devil as their master...

The Bean Nighe, however, was not always a portent of death, if approached correctly she could grant you wishes.  It's said that if a woman were to die in childbirth, she had to ensure that her washing was all done first, or else she'd be condemned to becoma Bean Nighe- washer woman.  Bean Nigh's had webbed feet.

The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy because it is beloved of the gods.

Sonnet XCIVBut if that flower with base infection meet,The basest weed outbraves his dignity:For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds

#12 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 09:08 AM

WOW...thanks, I never realized that!
Remember...vote for New Orleans for our '05 Reunion...this is not a subliminal message...New Orleans! Obey Whispers of Fire! New Orleans

#13 OwlGoddess

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 12:39 PM

yes, yes whispers... the owl, particularly in the natvie american / cherokee pantheon, is traditionally the messenger of death.  

the great horned owl (depending on what band of cherokee you talk to or what family beliefs you ascribe to) is **generally** the portend of death that arrives about 24 hours to a week before the death of a loved one.  

the screech owl or other small hooting owls are messengers from the spirit world and are often confused (by frightened cherokees!) for harbingers of death or ill fortune.

dogs and wolves in cherokee lore have the role of ratting out evil witches and sorcerers: dogs will growl and raise their hackles at an evil-doer but will befriend or investigate the benign.  

there are these other things, though, that are dangerous in and of themselves... nightwalkers (cherokee vampires / zombies...) and ravenmockers.  whispsers, you know all about the ravenmockers -- they come to eat the hearts of the sick and dying before the spirit owl of death can whisk them away.  nightwalkers are these tall, gollum - like creatures who walk well - known trails at night in search of human blood.  it's said that they can be controlled by evil-willed cherokee witches and sorcerers and someone can be marked as a nightwalker victim if they encounter one while travelling alone at night.
Life's waters flow from darkness; Search the darkness, don't run from it.--Rumi

#14 whispers_of_fire

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 05:10 PM

Hiya, Owlie*LOL*Thank you for the refresher course of Cherokee Lore, my friend and I can understand why your Grand
Da declared you as an Owl Person when you were so young, just for the comprehension of the old stories and beliefs is
bloody astonishing!

I can see how anxious/panicked Cherokee or anyone for that matter could easily mistake one type of owl for the other, I
think we've all done something like that*whether or not we 'fess up to it*but its dark, you're tense knowing you're a prime target for any wicked minded person<living or no longer>you hear a whoosh as a bird swoops, a shrill cry and your imagination plays merry hell with your senses and memory of what happened, was it a great hormed owl, warning you of your own death in a few days or was the screech owl your Grandfather's spirit complimenting you on the 12 point buck you took down that morning ;D

You know, I think I actually saw a pic of a Ravenmocker, ugly, beastly things aren't they?

I'm going way off the subject, but birds especially black birds play a lot of roles as heralds of death or just associated with it, to many tribes of Native Americans, the crow carried the souls of the dead. I believe the Norse felt
that ravens carried a fallen warrior to Valhalla*symbolic of
the Valkyries*To the Celts, the Raven was associated with the Morrigan, a female warrior known for her Berserker-like battle frenzy and treachery in battle
Remember...vote for New Orleans for our '05 Reunion...this is not a subliminal message...New Orleans! Obey Whispers of Fire! New Orleans

#15 UnkleBunny

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 12:14 AM

don't know if anyone has heard of this version of Black Dogs... but a lot of truckers, and people who travel the raods, speak of seeing a huge black dog, just before an accident... it's a massive, jet black beast, that lunges at you....(it was touched upon breifly in the movie, "Black Dog") some think they are a road hallucination, as often, they appear after the driver has suffered white line fever, however, after seeing my very logically thinking uncle pale with fear, shaking, as he told of this massive dog, that jumped on the hood of his truck, and almost seemed to jump through the cab.... right before he slammed into a parked rig....




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